"OW2 less strategic and deathmatchy"

Yes same. I would frame the statement, “We will give D.Va an actual buff, and not a band-aid fix” :heart_eyes: :heart_eyes: :heart_eyes: :heart_eyes:

plz buff matrix length :face_holding_back_tears:

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You can frame that statement.

Make supports fun the beta was not good

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Another simple way to see the distinction is, strategy is what approach to do overall, tactics are the way(s) you get there.

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I applaud you for trying to have this discussion, but nobody ever seems to be on the same page about what does and does not qualify as strategy (or tactics). So it always ends up with people talking past each other.

I do think that OW2 rewards tactical skill more, by which I mean mechanics, movement, use of the environment, and micro-scale decision-making. (Or, maybe it’s more that it’s less forgiving of poor tactics.) I think that’s what people perceive as “deathmatch-y”, and honestly that’s not totally inaccurate. Deathmatch modes do place a lot more emphasis on tactical skill, since the whole strategic layer of objective-management is just absent, so it makes sense that players feel a similar vibe.

But, the fact that tactical skill is more important doesn’t mean that there is no strategy. Strategy and tactics aren’t opposites, they just operate on different scales. It always takes both to win, even if the strategic choices weren’t consciously made as such, and even if your team’s “better strategy” amounts to “made fewer egregious strategic errors than the other team”.

I think what people mean when they complain about 5v5 and the push mode (and the loss of 2CP) being less “strategic” is just that they’re less static. Map control is more dynamic, so you can’t just memorize some rules about which parts of the map should belong to your team and which positions are “good”. Neither can you memorize simple rules about when a fight is functionally won or lost, especially on push where the spawn distances are so long. Simply trying to “play the objective”, by which people usually seem to mean prioritizing standing on the objective, rather than playing to maximize objective value, is also more punishable in 5v5 generally and especially on push. Playing in these ways would only get you so far in OW1 already, but adaptability seems to be even more important in OW2.


As an aside, I want to point out that the deathmatch modes are not strategy-free. Your choice of hero, which areas of the map you choose to contest/hold, which enemies you choose to engage on and which you choose to avoid, all of those are strategic choices. If you pick Junkrat on Chateaux Guillard and play around the jump pad, you’re making a strategic error because Junkrat doesn’t function so well in open spaces. Likewise, if you picking Widowmaker and try to play in the basement, you’re gonna have a bad time. Cassidy is perennially a popular pick in deathmatch modes because landing a flashbang is usually a guaranteed kill, and it’s easier to get the drop on enemies when they have to worry about threats from all directions. Heroes with self-heal are always popular in FFA because it allows them to opt out of the competition for healthpacks, and heroes with mobility can more readily make use of those healthpacks and maybe even tactically steal them to win duels. TDM has a whole other strategic layer because every death gives a net +1 to the enemy team, even self-inflicted deaths (which give -1 to your team).

And, of course, there are the “cheese” strats that everyone hates but are effective because they take strategic advantage of the game mode rules. In FFA, only final blows count, so heroes like Sym, Torb, and Moira who can easily and quite safely let other players do most of the work in softening up targets and then swoop in to get the final blow can be quite successful. In TDM, the team that is ahead can turtle and wait out the clock. Are these strategies fun to play against? Not for most. But they are strategies.

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I usually frame it as

Goals = Why
Strategy = How
Tactics = What

but I can see your take as well

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Even better - I could see in beta 1 and 2 towards the end as people adjusted, more tactics starting to emerge, I think that’s most of the issue - its a different game style and a lot of people were figuring out how to do things… this happened in OW 1 too.

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So I guess the goal is Sym should always be in a Taxi (not an ambulance) and do less damage then a DPS?

Honestly still seeing the whole thing “as a lightning rod” as the recent Parallels.

But that’s just me guessing why.

(:grimacing: in a rush and I know you likely can’t answer but man…)

That’s nice.

It’s fair to say OW2 is a deathmatch emphasized game where less teamwork is needed, full stop.

Damage control all you like, but that’s the game you created in OW1’s place.

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The team that has better teamwork is still going to win in OW2. Nothing has changed about that.

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Teamwork is definitely less important now.

Tank combos and synergy are all gone. Completely wiped out.

Aim is way more emphasized. And Widow and hitscan can control a map by themselves much more easily than before.

And the game has more of a snowball effect now with only 5 players on a team. One death, especially from your tank, can wipe out your team more easily now.

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I agree its very wise to say.

Btw what new game actually takes your mmr from the old one and carries it over to the new one?

A very wise answer would be nice.

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Tell everyone something we don’t already know. OW 1 was unbalanced on many ranks. With no change to OW 2 that is going to continue the mess.

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Technically can’t say “was” till after Oct. 6

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It will actually be worse to have the clown in your team… 5v5 games are lost more often when one player gets picked than in 6v6 …

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Wrong the team with the better DPS players and tank that sits with supports will win no team work is needed

Tanks just combo with damage now. Instead of Zarya bubbling a Rein or Winston, they just bubble their DPS and let them go in first.

Widow specifically is still only going to be strong on the maps that’s she’s usually strong on.

Aim having more emphasis is neither bad nor does is reduce teamplay.
You have to use the map geometry more for cover which isn’t bad either.

This is true at the pro level but I don’t see this being the case for regular play. Anyone on any role can get kills now and equallize because there’s less in the way to deny people making plays, whether that’s alone or through team effort.

If you lost a player in 6v6 you probably lost because getting a kill against 6 players is very hard, in 5v5 getting a kill against 5 is less so.

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Hiding behind corners is surely more fun than behind a shield mr owl professor lmao

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You are playing a shooter, use of natural cover is a given. Breaking LoS to avoid taking damage is a given. There is a reason why shields are breakable.

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This. Now looks like cod… With the difference that now one dead is a huge impact. And if the dead is the tank… Your team is doomed.

But yeah, game now is more deathmach. Maybe some people enjoy that. Me no, I liked overwatch as it was originally. Now feels a bit different game

Also support feel a bit irrevelant now and work as nice as on OW1 (but super offensive supports).

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