Ah the classic Ad Hominem fallacy when you can’t refute a point, “good one” mate.
You have no authority to tell anyone in this forum to stop posting, so take a chill pill ok?.
Correct. Launch OW was in fact more “FPS” than the current live version of OW.
What made the game popular and explode were Triple DPS, Korean tourneys like Apex and these type of tactical shooting.
The what now? You seem to have memory issues mate, because in “those times” where you could choose multiple heroes, all we saw was Tracers/Mcree everywhere (fan of the hammer was 420 damage) and then stacking Winstons/Lucio. Anything outside of that was trashed because you would get rolled.
This picture doesnt exist mate. Lets not pretend that every Widow is T500 and all the enemies are ultra dumb ok?. You literally have a PERMA INVIS hero, what are you talking about? Also claiming “OW2 is not a shooter because not every hero does have the same kill potential” is absurd. You are correlating 2 totally different things, like saying Fortnite is a better BR than Apex because they have fishing and other activities on the map.
Double shield has already been addressed quite successfully. It’s not the only viable option at high level play. D.Va, Winston and Ball were the 3 most used tanks in the 2021 season of OWL.
I’m confused why this is even a thread. Is OW2 less strategic and more deathmatch-like? Yes, obviously but that doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy it more. Some people enjoy a more strategic game and others enjoy a more straightforward shooter.
I think the actual reason why this debate exists is because some people who are enjoying OW2 more are getting butthurt at the fact that they’re enjoying a less strategic game more and are trying to convince others this isn’t the case so they feel better about themselves. Just get over it and enjoy what you enjoy.
In that case I guess I’m “wrong” since I don’t think it does.
You don’t have CS:GO’s weapon economy, Valorant’s abilities economy, League’s pre-game masteries strategizing or locked hero selection. You have a bunch of heroes who can only be played a handful of ways and you can always switch to a different one if things don’t work out. You don’t work towards an “end game build”, the game exists only in the present.
It mostly boils down to “if X does Y I’ll do Z” and the rest is mechanical skill. The abilities and how they interact with each other is a large part of strategizing in OW. By removing CC and shields, things that are used to counter other things, you also remove depth from the game.
As well as Mei’s freeze and Sombra’s much longer hack duration.
No, but choosing to switch to those heroes for those abilities was a strategy on its own, one that is no longer available.
See the thing is though, you can’t. It’s unfeasible to focus the majority of your attention on what’s in front of you and the rest on potentially 3 or more flank/snipe spots. It simply isn’t practical or fun.
Well, although ur making a strong argument, I don’t think u should be beating up those players who r still on the lower Ranks. I get it, they make mistakes. We ALL Make Mistakes. Be it, smaller or larger, it’s still a mistake, regardless. Ya just need to teach those who do not quite understand the different concepts of the game to potentially improve, if they R willing to improve.
Like myself, I’m willing to learn new things every day. Heck, I just adjusted a couple of my settings mere minutes ago just to help give myself the Competitive advantage. It’s likely a minor improvement, but it’s never-the-less, an Improvement. I also make sure I try my best to pay attention to new techs and information and such to see how I can improve my gameplay. I just learned a couple of tricks myself mere moments ago also looking at Supports, like the tempo u gotta keep for Bap’s gun as 1 example. I learn new bomb spots on my D.va by either research or by legit hands-on experience of doing experimentations to see what works and what doesn’t. Sometimes doing that IN THE MIDDLE OF A COMP MATCH. Yes, I’m a madman. Trying Experiments in the middle of a Serious Match. But that is what I gotta do to improve as a player. Research, Hands-On Experience, And Experiments, a Massive 3 ways u can learn to improve as a player of any kind.
Mind you, I am not completely disagreeing with ur argument. I do agree with what you are saying. I’m paying attention to my positionings on my D.va, but then I get those players who tell me “Why r u not pushing in?” Because I’m regrouping with my team? I’m not going in 1v6 or 1v5 (OW and OW2) and getting myself killed off when ya need me alive to do my job on D.va, which isn’t to mindlessly Dive in without a well-thought plan and strategy. I get those moments sometimes. But that is when u gotta learn to trust your own instincts and not what everybody tells you sometimes. Look at your positions and what your doing and what your job is and tell yourself what do you think is best? If some1, like say, coaches, think differently than you, then there has to be an explanation as to Y they think it’s better to do (blank) than what u thought was right, and you have to be the one to have the adaptable mind to adjust the way your playing and be willing to learn and grow as a player.
Now, I do also agree that it is a stretch to say OW2 = DM. But I do kinda see Y people feel the way they do, even if it’s flawed a bit. The chaos that happens in OW2, and the fact that u do not feel very safe in OW2 and the fact that u have to trust and rely on ur own skills and power more in OW2 compared to OW… The similar feeling of that in DM exists for OW2. But there are some clear differences. U have a team that can back u up. Ur not alone, like u would be in DM. Ur not fighting everything you see all around u all at 1 moment in OW2, like how DM has to be. Ur not 1 man v.s. the World, like u r in DM. The win condition isn’t to get 20 Kills like in DM, but instead to capture the point, or push the payload or something in OW2. So I think both sides make a decently fair point, it’s just an overexaggerated statement on showcasing exactly what the players feel towards OW2.
So, I see where u r coming from, Avian, but I wouldn’t take that statement so seriously, as it is clearly exaggerated to showcase how the players feel. It’s not actually more DM-like. And for strategies, all 3, OW, OW2 AND DM, all require strategies, just I feel used in different ways. And with small differences in strategies between all 3 diff types of OW. In all 3, u still r looking at ur own skills, you still need mechanical skill and cool techs and aim and positioning. Like, probs the biggest differences between then is the numbers. In OW, it’s 5 other players around u that can team with ya. In OW2, chop a player down. In DM, ur all alone. Where Teamwork is a thing in OW and OW2, with slight difference in losing a Tank, but DM doesn’t get Teamwork cause, well… U don’t have a Team to do TeamWork? But even if that is the biggest difference, there are still strategies in all 3 forms of gameplay, OW, OW2 and DM. So, although u make a fair point, Avian, I don’t think either side of the argument is 100%. U gotta respect the feelings of others, all the while still having the bit of realism on what is actually the truth. That is what I did. U gotta see things from the different perspectives of people, while still having ur own.
My brother, as is common with you, you are using your terminology incorrectly. I’m not even interested in what Andy B has to say. Wasnt quoting it, wasn’t even discussing it. An ad hominem is an argumentative fallacy in which one tries to underline a point by attacking character.
The most common form of ad hominem is “A makes a claim x , B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong”.
I make no claim to any X argument in this conversation. I’m just literally posting that AndyB doesn’t care about these forums, as quoted.
I couldn’t care less about the hair splitting with tactics v strategy.
If you ever worked in a company like blizz they ask you to make little side quest goals that you do besides your main job. Those side quests can be handy when talking about a payment raise. It is basically a thing employees present their manager, manager approves and you do your best doing those tasks. His probably looks like the following:
respond to X amount of users on the forums between [date] and [date]
make the reply as informational as possible
one reply must have at least 256 characters
try to do the impossible and have the least negative replies possible
So yea he works at blizzard and does his job, but there is no way that community manager is his real job/only job at blizzard. I don’t see why blizzard would hire a guy to communicate with 1% of the playerbase. Andy talks to the rat gulag which is the forum. That does not mean that he will in the future (as I said it is very likely its just a yearly goal that he needs to archieve) and all you will get is well deserved radio silence here.
Yea we would see Andy all over the place if that is his main job though. 7-8 hours a day would produce a lot of replies my guy.
Even if it is his main job, the 1% of playerbase argument is pretty strong when presenting it to his boss arguing why he does not talk to the rat gulag at all.
And i also saw some of them accidentally fall down the pit on Kings Row and C9 the objective multiple times a day.
Just because they are being called pros, they are still human and can mess up tremendously.
If there really was a team in a 5v5 settings where they lost the fight after killing 3 members of the enemy team, that is just plain and simply a bronze moment from them and is not in any way shape or form a 9000 IQ play from the opponent.
Why? Because at that point they had 2 and a half people to kill just 1 while also having access to healing and the tank. To turn that around, the 5 people had to mess up, not the 2 had to pop off. And dont forget these are people who have pretty consistent aiming, so missing shots that much is unlikely to happen.
Mathematically it makes sense, less people in a team means more responsibility for each people, and the snowball potential bigger.
Moving away from 6v6 to 5v5 overall increases the chances of individuals to pop off because each kill is worth more, but it also worth more to lose 1 person so its harder to turn things around.
In 6v6 the basic value of a player is 16.66%, with 1 people lost that increases to 20%, then 25% and so on until its just 1 person remaining with a 100%.
In 5v5 the basic value is 20%, then if you lose someone that jumps to 25% then 33% to 50% until its all on you.
So yeah, both killing and losing a player matters more in 5v5, hence the snowball is way faster.
Thats untrue. Hiding behind cover was never a core system in games like Quake or Unreal. It first got popular with Counter Strike and then got popularized with 3rd person shooters. One could argue cover systems ruined the shooter genre. You could say it‘s core to every modern tactic shooter though.
Hero plays in a team fight are still a thing, but if you’re definitely losing the fight you should try to reset as quickly as possible. I don’t see how solo carrying is incompatible with making sure your team wins–a big chunk of being a good individual player is knowing how to stack Ws and sometimes it isn’t trying to throw the game fishing for a WYKKYD SYKK sizzle reel 1v65.
Breaking LOS with walls is a FPS staple, even in arena shooters. Especially arena shooters, since you have high mobility and asymmetrical weapon distribution–you want to stick around and fight the guy with a rocket launcher where he can see you, or wait for him in/around a corner and shotgun him in the back?
Yeah lets play Q3 CPMA or Diabotical and try to „hide“ behind corners. I wouldn’t Compare breaking LOS for a splitsecond with crouching behind a car or some other prop. The only way to get oneshoted in those game is by not picking up any armor.
Moving at 1000ups is usually the better option to hiding.
If they reduce the amount of hard counters in this game, the game should become more tactical/strategic at least in the form of aggression.
We would also need to define “strategy” too. Is it from a perspective of a single player trying to win the game, or as a team? Because as a team, I think the complexity in strategy was decreased a bit which isn’t surprising since there’s one less player in both teams now.
But in the strategy context of a single player, that should have risen much higher in OW2. Especially for tanks and DPS role, since damage seems to be bringing the most value now in the second iteration of the game. And yes, dealing damage requires strategy too, because you need to strategise how to deal damage since every hero deals damage differently, and you also need to know which enemy to prioritise on, as well as figure out when to initiate the attack or flank.
For this reason, game should technically provide more opportunity for tanks to pop off as long as they don’t make the role too dependent on constant healing because of too high of a damage. But they still need to work on reducing OP synergies some heroes as well as team comps can have especially at higher level of coordination.
Since ultimates are still way too strong in this game and basically has no counter most of the time. But to be fair, there’s no more 2CP now. So getting a team-wipe with ultimates will provide less value now on newer maps like Push.
Anyways, the reason why CC was both increasing and decreasing strategy in OW1 was because it provides an option to deal with the problem. But it can also make the enemy unable to outplay you if the CC/ability/ultimate synergy is too strong.
I think OW2 in a way tries to address this at least from the CC side of things. Maybe they might still need to look into ana’s kits though as well as powerful ultimates every hero has. But aside from that, OW2 should have became more strategic than OW1 at least from a single player’s perspective. As a team, the game may or may not have become less strategic. So we gain some, and we lose some.
With the DPS role in particular for OW2, the game is already significantly more strategic than OW1 for them. So I don’t think too much changes are needed to improve the qualit of that role.
Support, I think needs way more work. Since support’s strategy in playmaking has to mostly come from healing and using utilities. Since unlike tanks or DPS, their damage is more limited even though damage is so far bring the most value in strategy.
You are literally using an exception. Q3 1v1 or TDM was ALL about zone/map/item control and using cover, then hearing the enemy and pre-firing on corners to get advantage. In fact, the more the enemy caught you in the open, the more likely you were to die.
Being behind shields and 2 dudes with absorption skills, 2x+ your health and getting ultrapocketed while shooting the enemy is not an FPS thing really. It is possible in OW1 sure, but its not something that relates to an FPS more than natural cover.
Not in a million years.
I‘d love to face you. „Zoning“ is something completlly different. A Zen „hiding“ behind a car is not Zoning and he won‘t be able to run away or control neither the map nor a single heal pack. „Hiding“ is what „Campers“ do in CS; you can shot you teammates in the head in CS too but it probably isn‘t a core system of the game. Of cause there is cover in arena shooters but i didn‘t quote „cover is a system“ i quoted „hiding behind cover beeing a core system“.
Because it is? What FPS game has ever allowed you to just trundle down mid in plain sight? Ultramobility like rjump/skipjump physics abuse became a thing because you needed a way to cross clear terrain without being exploded by anyone with two brain cells.
