There ins lays our differency in thinking. Some of us do see “aim better” as the best solution, and want to overcome the “hypermobility” by hardwork. High rank Widows stomp on Tracer/Genji have proven that it works, and it is feasible.
We recognize the enemy needs good tracking and aim too. Your average Tracer would lose much more oftem than not, so may the best player wins. And if you fail to do that, use position and your team to cover your weaknesses.
And if mobility on top of raw aim is the best balancewise, the simple solution would be to move up and play Tracer ourself.
Ability heavy chars like Rein/Brig/Doom/Lucio aren’t really present I even in older FPS the closest to doom I can think of is Demoknight lol. I think “MOBA” is something of a proxy for non-aim based skills involving abilities/movement/positioning etc that aren’t as crucial in awp off (not saying that these aren’t required in other games at all of course), aiming in the traditional sense isn’t as crucial in a MOBA.
I’d disagree that it doesn’t work in FPS games. With the insane movement/flanking/escapes present in the game as well as channeled abilities,
stuns are a must
Same with hitscan.
I’m not really sure what you mean. There’s people in all the groups that go on about how their role is the hardest bestest most whatever, not just hitscan
Nono… if it’s not what the OP says then all the arguments they have fall flat. It HAS to not be a MOBA so we can try and change a game to fit a specific definition instead of just fixing a game to be fun and balanced.
Take it up with Blizzard , they are the ones who have said what kind of game Overwatch is and what inspired it.
Also what kind of game they want OverWatch 2 to be like.
Don’t hate the messenger.
the problem with that opinion is that it downplays, if not straight up ignores, the advantages and benefits hypermobility bring. like if high rank widows actually consistently stomp on tracers and genjis, then widow should’ve been dominating pickrates in those ranks and not tracer for when tracer has been having high pickrates, yet that consistently has not been the case. The fact is, the advantages that having more mobility than your opponent gives simply isn’t negligible. esp when we’re talking about hypermobility.
and this is even worse for bulky hypermobile heroes. e.g.
like yes, fitzy isn’t being 100% serious (both in what he was saying and the gameplay; like he defs could’ve slammed and/or actually shot at something more but he was purposely only rolling around for the content), but you can’t deny that simply him zooming around had in fact created a significant amount of space for his team on top of draining out various enemy resources for his team to capitalise one (ana nade, brig boop, brig stun, taking enemy healthpacks, etc.).
and the average player not playing tracer would more often than not find landing shots on a tracer (esp if there’s no more cc) a lot harder than vice versa.
having double standards (1 for in favor of tracer/hypermobility that’s more lenient/lax than the 1 that’s against tracer/hypermobility) simply isn’t being reasonable.
This your definition of a hybrid.
Many people say it’s an FPS with MOBA elements, some people say it’s a hybrid but don’t mean it in 50/50 way, other they it’s MOBAesque
Where were you when Widow straight up terrorized the game at the ending days of dive Meta? And the many Metas after where people (especially the forum) complained that they couldnt dive Widow and the only way to counter Widow is a better Widow?
and where have you been in the past 6 months minimum where tracer’s getting picked far more than widow in GM despite double shield being nerfed out if “high rank widow can stomp tracer/genji”?
and where have you been in that dive meta before people took up widow?
like nothing you’re saying refutes the fact that having more mobility than your opponent, esp when talking about having plenty more mobility, is something that gives you a very significant advantage that demands needing tools to deal with rather than “jUSt clICK tHEM bEtTer 4HeaD”, esp when it comes to bulky hypermobile heroes like ball and df whose bulk inherently skews the TTK race in their favour that “shoot them better” inherently doesn’t necessarily actually counter them.
why have double standards whereby the disadvantaged less mobile hero needs to have more aim to compensate that disadvantage (but not allowed anything else for such compensation) whereas the advantaged more mobile hero is held to a lower standard of aim despite their advantage?
like it’s blatantly objectively inconsistent with your draconian aim elitism and blatantly wanting very 1 sided imbalance.
Do you play Tracer and Genji? I dont think their aim are lenient at all.
Before the HP nerf, Widow was among, if not, the best DPS. If there’s less CC to keep flankers in check, she will get her HP back. Balance can be adjusted for Doom and Hammond like health/shield nerfs ect. There are a lot of things we can do to make it fair. But first, gotta learn to shoot them first instead of waiting for the patches.
Case in point, i played Zen through all the supposed dive Metas. Yes, Zen, who has no mobility or stuns, just aim, to fight against the hordes of Genjis and Tracers, all day every day. If i had thought it was so unfair and never tried, i would never be able to climb with Zen.
I’m pointing out how you’re imposing a higher standard of aim for the less mobile hero in the matchup (i.e. the disadvantaged; higher standard because it legit is objectively harder for them to aim at the more mobile hero rather than vice versa because of their higher mobility as explained previously) compared to the the more mobile hero in the matchup
i.e. in essence, you’re taking up the mentality that the mobile heroes somehow are allowed to have all the benefits of mobility (of which absolutely exist and are nontrivial) for free, while the inherently disadvantaged need to somehow compensate the disadvantages with being better than the enemy just to stand on equal ground. that simply isn’t a mentality that’s aiming for balance.
except do widows consistently “stomp” tracers/genjis? NO
like to illustrate the original point in bringing up tracer vs widow:
rank the following heroes, if they only use their primary and secondary fires, their difficulty (inclusive of likelihood of success) to deal with tracer (from easiest to hardest) and state your reasons: soldier, mccree, widow.
I bet you’d have the order as shown above.
if we have hypermobility, there is absolutely a need for dedicated tools for the less mobile heroes to have reasonable counterability against hypermobility and to be on even ground.
simply “make them do more damage per shot” is not necessarily fair compensation from a design perspective because it doesn’t even take into account the reasonableness to actually land the shot nor when getting hit by it. just like making a projectile that’s like 5m/s be able to OHKO anyone as compensation for the slow speed isn’t necessarily fair compensation nor a good design either, because likewise, it doesn’t even take into account the reasonableness to actually land the shot nor when getting hit by it.
you can’t unless you want to butcher the very core design of their core gameplay. if they’re too fragile, they’re useless because they’d be blown to bits too quickly. if they have sufficient sustain to engage, disengage, rinse repeat without melting too quickly, we have them like now in which cc is needed to be able to counter them.
It doesn’t though. And the devs themselves have cited other genres as their source of inspiration. You act like people are making it up when you’re the one contradicting official information.
For Doom and Hammond, we can always look for the sweet spot between too fragile and too tanky, that’s what balance is for.
And you can ask anyone here in the forum about how oppressive Widow was before the nerf. They will tell you that they couldnt dive her with Tracer, Genji or Doomfist.
And mobility is not exclusive to Tracer, Genji or Doom. Take McCree for example, say he lost his flashbang, what to say he cant have more rolls to compensate? What to say Widow cant have more grappling hooks to disengage to make the match ups both about aiming and maneuvering?
However, if you insist on hypermobility is unsurmourable adventages in 1v1. I dont mind flankers have advantages in close range combat. You can strip away flashbang ect and buff Hitscan’s primary fire in compensate, its called strengths and weaknesses. Let say, Genji and Tracer have advantage over Widow and McCree even though the later two have an even more deadly weapons. It will be their team’s job to stop the flankers from harassing them, while they will focus on dismantling the rest.
you’re not without changing everything on them.
df’s ttk on others is short (and needs to be because he relies heavily on melee range/contact abilities). in a cc’less world, if he’s left as is he’ll be oppressive because hardly anything stops him from getting picks, whereas if you nerf his sustain so that more heroes’ TTK on him matches with his TTK on them more, then df easily becomes useless as many things will zone him out because range and he’ll get shredded easily when he engages.
similar logic with ball. if his sustain is lowered to the point where just shooting him despite his speed will be enough stop him from getting value, then he’s useless and is just a ult charge battery. otherwise in a cc’less world, stuff like the youtube clip I provided above will still happen and nothing can really stop that.
you’re again running off on a tangent.
are you going to give everyone as much mobility as tracer, df, ball, etc. tho? because unless the amount of mobility is near equivalent, there’ll still be a significant advantage to the more mobile hero.
e.g. even if mccree has 2 rolls against a tracer, tracer still has more mobility to be the one more in control of initiation in engagements (can be more picky about when to engage, can out bait out the other’s resources more; all in all to get ahead of the ttk race), and more unpredictability in movement.
Whereas when you compare with say how another hypermobile hero like mercy would deal with tracer, she’s got a really low cd mobility that can let her travel far and high, to reach places that may need tracer to use all her blinks to catch up.
can you give more mobility to about everyone without making some heroes OP? highly doubt so.
like can you imagine reaper or rein with tracer mobility? like even multi-roll mccree is problematic because it’d let him be able to spam fth a lot more and to be able to “roll in, fth, roll out”.
The fact is, the actual reasonable tools that’d bridge that gap for less mobile heroes are of the form of cc, aoe/splash/aim lenient mechanics or higher sustain to out live them. Yet all of those are what many people that hold the same views as you don’t want.
Except when talking about hypermobile heroes, whether one is in close range or not is pretty much all within the control of the hypermobile heroes. Like if they want to reach you, they will because they’re mobile enough and will also still have some for the actual fight too.
Except who’s going to have the counterability against hypermobility to “stop the flankers from harrassing”? What will that counterability be when cc is gone and you also want everything high precision and low sustain?
Like in 5v5 the tank will be too busy in the front line.
You may argue “oh but support healing will give sustain to dps in that matchup to peel them” but what if supports are the target?
Dps ain’t giving the sustain to supports to peel them, and pure damage isn’t going to prevent the support’s death in a lot of cases. like damaging to threaten the enemy out is only 1 component of peeling (a peel fails if the person to be peeled dies), and not to mention the act of landing that damage on hypermobile threats is questionable given the premise.
Do you play Hitscans or other DPS in general? Or any aim based or flanker heroes? I feel like you have never truly tried any of them to understand the balance, strength and weakness among them to discuss further.
Just want to chime in on this point. There’s the same high standard of aim for mobile heroes when they try to aim while using their mobility. It’s a fact that mobility also throws off the aim of the hero using it.
Now mobile heroes like Winston and Hammond do not have high standard of aim while they are using their mobility as Winston has auto aim while Hammond’s mobility is also his attack, but on heroes like Tracer and Genji, the more you use your mobility the better aim you need. Tracer blinking to your behind? Well she has to do 180 as well. Genji “gimball lock” your upward aim, well his downward aim also gets locked. This is also true for Lucio. It’s far more difficult to maintain good aim while wallriding all over the place than just being on the ground.
While that’s true, it’s still going to be much easier relatively for the person with the higher mobility because they can control/anticipate their own movement. This is ultra-true for heroes with vertical mobility, because aiming vertically tends to be much harder in general.
I play sym and sombra when I get a chance to play dps.
or you just lack foresight to see blatant design problems…
except the hypermobile hero knows beforehand where they will go when and how much they should be turning, whereas the target needs to wait for more cues and info to more accurately predict or determine “oh they’re going behind rather than the various other places they could’ve gone to” to then need to attempt to do a 180. that delay is a big advantage when considering that such flankers have low ttk on you, not to mention that such hypermobile heroes can further quickly zip to another place quickly after to compound more of the delay effect.
to say “oh the slower hero just needs to aim better, no specialised tools (cc, sustain, lenient aiming abilities, etc) needed to compensate that difference” is literally the view that mobile heroes are allowed to have that advantage for free.
like here’s a highlight demonstrating what I mean by the delays:
like normally sym orbing would easily lose up against a mccree that can aim (which that mccree could btw, he was 2~3 tapping me often in that match), and a big reason for that is orbs being inherently (sniper-tier charge time, slow projectile —> inherently really inconsistent, etc. vs mccree being hitscan and literally can 2~3 tap most heroes with 0.5s per shot).
yet zipping between tp entrances in a non-rhythmic way as I did in the highligh forcing that mccree to need to wait and reactively see where I went and then later need to do a big turn unlike me who can precharge and know how much to turn beforehand to be able make up that difference between firerate +orb charge time. like legit even managed to not get hit long enough for shield hp regen to trigger and get back max hp.
Your foresight will often blind you to reality. You only make an educated guess and think that you must be right.
Others actually live it, experience it first hand. We think balance through actual combat. Yes, Tracer will always have advantage over no flash McCree, but she is also toasted or forced to retreat as soon as she misses her window to finish off McCree, another enemy will start looking at her, or the Support will start healing Cree. That is the real combat expeeience, you dont have all day to dance. You should hop on Tracer oncw a while and see for yourself
the closest to doom I can think of is Demoknight lol. I think “MOBA” is something of a proxy for non-aim based skills involving abilities/movement/positioning etc that aren’t as crucial in awp off (not saying that these aren’t required in other games at all of course), aiming in the traditional sense isn’t as crucial in a MOBA.
except 
(sniper-tier charge time, slow projectile —> inherently really inconsistent, etc. vs mccree being hitscan and literally can 2~3 tap most heroes with 0.5s per shot).