One last question and request: MMR range

It is not only “a couple of forum posts”, for sure. There are a lot of topics that I read from you and most of those I did not even reply to, because “no need to feed the troll”.

But when you actually go into so much depth to prove how you and players like you are “discriminated” on purpose I personally get tilted. People like you are the ones who prevent every single new player to start playing this game.

If I never played this game in my life and would read something that you have posted and would knew nothing about this game I would be cautious in regards whether to play this game or not.

I would not have written all of this if I myself were not Bronze at some point and did not know what Bronze feels or looks like.

And I most definitely would not write this as someone who has been there done that, and did it all on my own, solo Q, with no one to help me. I did it, I got out of it and all of your s* on here means squat.

Same with the rest of the people like you. I have seen your gameplay where you went head first into a Rein as a Junk and were confused on why you died.

If people like you are allowed to play Comp then yes, the System needs changing. They should keep you at AI training ground until you learn how and what and who should be played how and what and where.

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I realize Jeff said +3/-3 in that Seagull bff extravaganza, but he might have had it confused with KSR (knapsack rating). Some of the patents talk about modifiers to your 1/6th expected contribution - i.e. making it so you have to contribute well above/below that 1/6 for the rigged I mean pre-planned 50/50 outcome.

Yes. Without resets, there exist asymptotic lock-in effects (aka hard-stuck) where your MMR is anchored into a position well above or below the SR you’re 50/50’ing at. This won’t work on volatile new accounts, but a lot of veteran ones will suffer this. The game has you on record playing like a plat and that’s more or less dialed in, so you have this massive MMR inertia to overcome, along with w/e else they use like KSR, or output budget that is disproportionate to your labelled and classified SR. Meaning you can be forced into this designated carry, always the one facing smurfs never having smurfs (in climbing mode) on your own team, etc.

You end up with games that are massively mislabeled. They’re <500 matches and everyone in there is showing silver-plat like gameplay, because the MMR and SR just don’t align (even if hidden mmr is still only 900mmr for a 600sr match, that’s enough to get nonstop latenight smurf battles).

True. When they play in <500 their MMR is probabaly like 900. It wants to get them up and out but really isn’t classifying them anywhere near their proper final rank.

No because in a no-reset alt-infested mmr-rigged system you have lowpop edge effects like non-transitive mixing and involuntary wintrading. The same high mmr players are cycled back and forth, outputting high mmr stats but getting nowhere in terms of SR. The pbsr basically trades as well, balancing out and your gains are offset with leavers, which cost both teams a signifcant mmr shedding. Finally you have the egregious queue times so you barely get to play every night.

The SR most certainly does not follow your performance output very quickly (on anchor accounts). That’s why we have a bunch of T500 (not luciobol) icons in the B500. No1 is throwing that many games they can get low rank from GPU crashes (like I did in 2017). And in 2021 <500 is just plat-equivalent micro, without caring about the objective/macro.

Its nice that you made up reason why you are stuck :slight_smile: . How is that helping you tho? You are in the dead end, if you blame game and its system there is no point to improve. But if you accepts its you, you have chance to improve your gameplay and climb.

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Are you sayinf that top500 player have hard time to escape bronze? I can hardly to believe that. I am that low dia peak and when I played in low bronze, I could have been doing nothing half of the match and it was still pretty much impossible to lose most of the time. When I won i gained like 40 SR and i was losing 12. Its practicaly impossible to stay there even if you want it. If you are already higher ranked player of course.

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At this point I can climb but it makes me feel that much better when I hit a losing streak for no reason.

For 4 seasons now I start at 1500 climb to 1700~1900 and drop to 1400 where I have to climb back to mid 1600 before season end.

It’s pretty consistent and plain odd. Now before covid would I have noticed?

Also knowing the system now when I am near a peak, maybe I will seek someone out before I drop back down to bronze.

I wonder why? What happens after you hit high silver? Anything changed in yours play style?

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Gee I wonder too, makes you want to ask questions LOL

This one is off topic, but, heres a replay code of a 1600 rated game, I’m Dean, WVXV7C

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Your SR should be essentially equal to MMR on a mature account. SR Drift should only be occurring to any noticeable degree in a few exceptional circumstances:

SR Drift does occur when you receive a leaver penalty, and at the top of the ladder at the beginning of a new season as the result of rank decay. These SR changes are specifically done to SR, and do not have an effect on MMR, and so naturally force a divergence between SR and the equivalent MMR.

SR Drift may occur on immature accounts because MMR can be adjusted wildly during your initial matches, e.g. your initial placements and the first dozen or so matches after it. This may exceed the amount that SR can chase MMR by, but we don’t have a lot of transparency on this point and SR does also vary wildly on immature accounts.

SR Drift may also occur during long streaks. We don’t have full transparency on how SR chases MMR, but imagine a simple mechanism such as, after each match’s MMR adjustment, SR is calculated as the average of your old SR and your new MMR’s SR-equivalent. This would move you half the distance towards your ‘actual’ MMR each iteration, and as long as you have mixed wins and loses this will keep your SR very close to your MMR. However, if you continuously move in the same direction, the gap will continue to widen.
This effect shouldn’t be significant except in the case of throwing, boosting, or cheating, as continuous wins or continuous losses are an unnatural result. (Alts of very high ranked players should be brought to a level where they aren’t 100% win-rate before this is a significant factor).

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I did ask you question :), what did you change in your play style?

If you are at your peak, you need to keep practicing and keep eliminating your mistakes, play better or you will never keep it. Climbing is not just about reach Ing certain SR as peak. It is about moving your SR range up and holding it with your skill. So for example going from 1600-1800 to 1800-2000.

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I didnt change anything in my play style.

My whole thing is:

MMR stays, while SR goes up. if I am 1500, which is around -1.5 to -1, what if I do keep winning past my MMR SR range? Doesnt it in fact keep matching my MMR with people IT thinks it should, so for example, I manage to get to 1800, but my MMR-SR cap is 1600.

Technically when it finds folks for me, its will be at the -1 MMR but my SR-MMR is at -.5… basically my SR says I should get better teammates by my MMR says… no sir you’ve been winning but not performing.

Other way - I’ve been losing but doing very well. Now my MMR is going up - but my SR is going down?

Another case - other team has a leaver and your just goofing around.

At this point I see both sides. This system is trying to judge me… and match me with people it thinks will be “fair”. Mean while the SR satisfies the old school numbers guy in me that wants to keep ranking up.

I think it does miss the mark in both “relativity” and perceived skill. And too many “oh this will never happen” - but it happens constantly to many different people. Just my thoughts.

No it really doesnt, it was said that your MMR is changing after every game just like SR.

Can you at least do not blame me for not having the correct info and or mixed messages! - WHICH IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

I really think Jeff at the time and who ever really think too highly of this MMR - and those who can climb dont see a broken system. Its like rich people trying to figure out why poor people are not getting rich. “You just have to work hard bud and save your nickels, you TOO can be a millionaire.”

and I just happen to believe there are more cases but they dont care to look.

Mean while… in the last hour, I’ve been the only one on my team past a bronze border… its just… ODD.

Kaawumba has worked hard for many years to curate the guide and make it very clear for people. It’s really an excellent compilation of all the things devs have said over the years and an excellent consolidation and translation. I don’t think the devs need to say much more than they already have.

The problem is that MMR works across the whole player base very well. Overall, most players, and especially players that play a large number of games are in the right rank.

Individuals sometimes have frustrating experiences, but that doesn’t mean that MMR is broken. We do not have access to the details behind the scenes, but Jeff has said that it works well.

For MMR to work well, then win streaks or lose streaks do not need to be eliminated. MMR works well across a very large number of games, for both the player base as a whole and for individuals. Drops of 200 SR over a day or two is not evidence of the system being broken. It just represents the complications of a competitive system and the fact that MMR isn’t and can’t be a perfect predictor of the fairness of a match. Over a large number of games, it averages out to be accurate, but individual games cannot be perfectly predicted.

Further, even if the matchmaker were TRYING to guarantee a win or a loss to an individual, it couldn’t do that with specific games, that’s not how statistical predictions work. The matchmaker CANNOT enforce the outcome of individual games. It can only set up the conditions that across a statistically significant number of games would average out to be fair. So people at the same time have unrealistic expectations of the consistency of game outcomes, AND of the ability of the matchmaker to know the outcome of an individual game.

This is not correct. MMR is a very precise decimal that moves based on the information from every match.

We do not know the rules about MMR changes, nor do we know exactly when or how much it moves, but they have said that it moves according to both information about the past performance of the player and the new information of the performance in a given match. Presumably there is AI and data modeling involved which learns based on the whole body of statistics across all the games. So the movements of MMR after each of your matches use complicated rules that are not published, but which have been stated to be STATISTICALLY accurate across the whole player base. The measurement of accurate is that the overall win rate for players approaches 50% over time, which means that eventually, the MMR becomes accurate, and people win around half of their games, which implies that the difficulty is correct.

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Here you have it, there are not notches, SR is chasing MMR very closely. having one MMR for 400 SR gap is definitely not “chasing”.


He said its possible, yes if you underperform a lot for example. They way of how he said it shows that normaly it does change. Ther eis just possiblity it wont in some certain cases.

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We’re down to the point where it is now possible but it doesnt happen often… I never said it happens all the time. Its ok to agree with me or accept that your wrong… I dont gain anything and you wont lose anything - YOU win by gaining knowledge.

Not looking to gain any medals for proving something its just that I read something one place and get told it doesnt happen from another person… Its confusing!

Which leads me to this, coming from a game like diablo and wow where everything is explained to the detail, after 6 years I’m still in shock its come to where we have different parts of info. I applaud to for making it, but it shouldnt be needed in the first place.

Again, you guys take my words and take it to the extreme. Not a great system doesnt mean its “broken” just means there are conditions I’m sure they didnt think of. And my whole point was I believe Jeff thought too highly of it and you quote him saying how he likes it - Yes I believe HE thinks it was a good system, doesnt mean it cant get better - studied to make sure all situations are accounted for.

The system cant be consistent, but people have to be for statistics to be meaningful? But people are not consistent and thus how can the system be -and why defend it so heavily? Also I think how MMR doesnt look how your team did, or the roles or anything is a little improvement they could make. Maybe you didnt NEED to perform well because your tanks were awesome.

And again, I think my word usage of “notches” or ranges maybe distracting you, but thats what the post says, if -3 is bronze and 3 is GM, and its stored in std dev - there are ranges… 200 / 400 / 700… who knows… how can you argue aginst math!!! now this is just getting rediculous. And them saying it follows your closely - whats their definition of “closely”? To them closely COULD be 400 - WE DONT KNOW. Just cause YOU feel that maybe not close that is speculation on your part.

I’m Still waiting on the VERY SOON ANNOUNCEMENT!

No, Jeff said MMR is stored very precisely to a very small decimal number. I think he said it explicitly in the interview he did with Seagull. We don’t have to speculate on that part. MMR is a floating point number that makes very small changes based on every match and the statistical data provided by that match. He explicitly said that it could change zero, or it could change a “large amount” based on the uncertainty information they also keep. So if you got into your first ever placements match, and played HORRIBLY relative to the other people at 0 MMR (the starting point, roughly equal to 2350 SR) then they will move your MMR in the negative direction more than they would for someone with a bunch of games already played that were recent.

The guide really is quite good.

Very good interview here:

The end notes 3, 5, and 6 reference that video.

The guide definitely says it’s a small decimal that moves every match.

The average MMR change per match is very likely close to 0.029 in the positive or negative.

I dont mean to freak about MMR but I am freaking out that you guys not being able to read the very guide your referencing. And at one point it SAID 0.5 Std Dev… maybe not that guide but somewhere I read it on the forums.

Now I look at it, it JUST MIGHT BE 1 meaning 700 SR range per MMR value, but I’ll stick to my 0.5, I do believe I read it, I’ll look for some more.

There arent, its not my experience.

Great article to understand the basics: