I’ve talked to you before and this reply surprises me.
Why should a hero who underperforms be nerfed because occasionally you fight a standout (or possible a smurf).
Same was for Brigitte but you see how it ended.
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you just described her primary function. If you take that away from her, then just delete her from the freaking game already!
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Uh…maybe now it is but that’s not what it was made to be. It was made to be a game of nuanced counterplay, not hard counters. When you have hard counters it becomes a fps of rock, paper, scissors. A good example of nuanced counterplay is the new hero and tracer. The new hero has a couple of ways to deal with tracer, she insta kills her with a headshot, has an escape mechanism for when tracer gets too close, and a placeable turret for an ult that auto aims, something that tracer has had trouble dealing with in the past. None of these are guaranteed wins against tracer, but they give Ashe a slight upper hand against tracer. If the Ashe is better than the tracer, the Ashe wins. If not, the Tracer wins. If they are equal skill the Ashe will take 7/10 fights with the tracer. This is how it should work, not some guaranteed kill combo that breaks the game.
Okay, so let me get in here.
Widowmaker deserves to be nerfed because she is unfun. Her one-shot-kills leave zero room for counterplay as by the time you realize you are out of position, you are already dead. We learn and get better by reacting to stimulus and observing the results, and snipers with the ability to OSK prevent that completely. When you are unable to learn from a mistake in this way, the only result is frustration, which makes sniper one shot kills toxic by their very nature, and therefore “unfun”.
So yes, widowmaker and hanzo’s one shot kill headshots should be outright removed from the game. They are the worst kind of mechanic for a game like Overwatch and one of the top contributors to toxic behavior due to their built-in frustrating nature.
If her only function is to “be annoying” then she should be removed from the game as that kind of character can do nothing but promote toxicity.
By that definition, “carry” type heroes like Widowmaker, Hanzo, and Tracer should absolutely be nerfed into the ground as they can be nothing but anti-pattern to that very design. When you have a carry hero, you have to build around them, which means that any hero who cannot be used in that manner simply cannot be used.
It will promote over-niche application of heroes, and toxic behavior by restricting other heroes so badly there is literally nowhere they are viable (see: Bastion).
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Carry heroes require tons of skill to do the ‘carrying’ (with the exception of bastion, he needs a rework to give him more reward for skill). A bronze tracer can’t just win because they play a “carry hero”. What’s more these heroes don’t hard counter anything. Tracer makes life as an ana harder, but she has ways of dealing with her like her sleep combo or just getting a teammate to kill the slept tracer. Widowmaker makes life as a zen harder, but he has ways of dealing with her like his alt fire, and his ability to have faster and more constant peak shots. Hanzo…well no one likes hanzo anyway and he is not what this conversation is about.
My point is no one ever said “they have a tracer, switch off of ana or I’m reporting you”. They may have said “that tracer is outplaying you on ana, maybe switch to a more mobile healer to get help faster”. On the other side people have said on numerous occasions “they have a brig, get off of hog/reaper/genji/tracer or I’m reporting you”.
well, then sombra should be removed too. and lets not forget about genji, it is so annoying to die from a swift dash, and lets also delete junkrat. I mean, it is SO ANNOYING to die because you stepped in a trap, or accidentally walked into a grenade! and no, her only funktion is not to be annoying, it is her primary function, as she is a flanker
Does. Not. Matter.
Carries are the opposite of Hard Counters. A hard counter can defeat another hero with zero skill, while a carry cannot be defeated if the player’s skill is high enough. The only counter for a true carry is a hard counter, and if there’s no room for one then there’s no room for the other.
It’s really that simple.
Good thing for Bronze tracers skill is relative. You don’t need to be in masters to carry with tracer. Your Tracer play just needs to be more on point than the other teams’ efforts to counter you.
I feel like nowhere near enough people understand that skill is relative and not absolute… I mean, if skill weren’t relative, Tracer would have a 0% win rate below GM, and that’s just not how it works.
Also, win-rate has nothing to do with being “frustrating” and “unfun” to play against. A tracer player’s team can lose and still ruin the game for the winning team’s players due to how they play.
Same goes for Widowmaker and Hanzo. Win rates actually have no bearing on this. I mean, people were QQing about Junkrat way before his second mine buff, so if that can be held against him I can hold how annoying Tracer is against her.
Maybe she should.
I would be okay with losing Genji. His kit is still overstuffed.
They already did so you’re one up there. I mean, he’s so bad now I stopped playing him almost completely and I love Junkrat.
Her function should not be “to be annoying”. It should be “to secure kills by attacking from a flank”, and there are ways to make her less annoying while still preserving that feel.
My original nerf idea is to add in windup times so that the tracer player has to think ahead more, and so that anyone shooting at her will have some warning that she’s about to disappear. Depending on how much that affects her survivability there are a lot of adjustments that could be made to her kit to make sure she stays viable.
Talk about “nerfing into the ground” is cheap and at the end of the day all heroes should be viable. I just think it would be best if their very designes don’t promote the people you play against to put their fists through their monitors.
there was actually someone coming up with a good idea some time ago about using some new animation to her recall. it would show the recall as in the “Alive” cinematic so it would be easier to predict, where she would go.
but I dont think that a windup time would be good as a change to tracer. her kit promotes reacting to incoming damage fast, and 0.1 second is a lot of time if it was implemented into that type of kit.
I agree with you, and most tracers use her that way, but the “to be annoying part” is something that bad tracers use more than anything. I personally use the “secure kills on squishies” most of all, but the “to be annoying” part is also something I use when there are no squishies to take care of. Im just not sure that it is possible to take away the annoying factor, when that is mostly something that her flank enables.
I fully agree with you. the nerf they did to junks grenades was crazy, and I dont agree with any of these DELETE(X)MOVEMENTS, but as I said earlier, I dont think that there is any compromise with Tracers annoying parts and still having her reliable. I think that the best thing that the devs could do is to try out the idea with animations on her recall.
Lol, just like clockwork people immediately start to call for more nerfs to other heroes. Hilarious how this cycle continuously has been repeated.
It’s really unfun to die to Mercy’s pistol. Nerf Mercy’s pistol ! (I was being sarcastic if you didn’t get it)
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The reason Tracer is a carry is because there is an imbalance here.
Tracer can simply react to incoming damage because her blink and rewind don’t have any kind of cast time. You get no warning so countering her blinks requires anticipating them. You cannot react to them because reactions are too slow. She’ll kill you if you’re merely reacting because she knows when she’s going to blink and in which direction which gives her a massive advantage when tracking
If she had to anticipate your incoming damage and hit blink before you started shooting her in order to successfully dodge it, things would simply be fair.
I think that there is, and it could be as simple as increasing the distance of her blinks, or slightly increasing her range, or slightly tightening up her spread.
#DELETETRACER
Time to get this hashtag going!
Why do so many still advocate against tracer she does poorly on most ranks with GM/t500 being the exception from guys who poored tons of hours into her and reap the rewards from it. She is not a problem for 99 percent of the game. And a lot of balance changes have happened since she was meta i doubt she will reign supreme there is not a tracer in my games (low masters) who had been problematic in ages even before brig was a thing.
Doesn’t matter if she’s a problem. It’s been established that being “unfun” or “frustrating” to play against is enough to get you nerfed, and I find her to be both (along with Hanzo and Widowmaker, though for different reasons).
If that’s enough to get them nerfed, then they should be nerfed to keep things fair.
Yeah but people are lying to themselves i play a lot started in silver below plat which is 60 percent of all players you hardly see tracers when you do they are mostly throwing because they can’t play her. Above she picks up a bit of ground up till diamond still a soft throw mostly. Sure there are some smurfs but i am probably the one who enjoys smurfs in my games to see their movement positioning and try to learn from them instead of hating the smurf i embrace it call me weird. I dont really care for 1 loss in the grand scheme of things. And smurfs is not the reason for a nerf btw to get this clear. In Low Masters where i am now currently she does not get picked mostly to the brigitte ever present in almost all games so people don’t bother. After the nerfs brigitte still impacts tracer in a big way zoning a tracer is almost as effective as killing her outright.
So i do not see the call for a nerf because in my eyes she won’t be meta still.
that’s pretty much tracer, she is broken though but so is a lot of things in this game so it balances out, but tracer is very annoying even if she sucks, so is genji.
but i think for me atleast it’s how common they are.
but then again i don’t play ranked and there’s probably a lot less of them there.
Maybe two years ago when nobody knew how to play her, but the general playerbase has gotten a lot better since then and you can find people who actually know how to play her even as low as bronze, silver, and gold.
The primary thing to remember is that skill is relative. A tracer player doesn’t need to be better than 80% of people in the game to carry with her. They just need to be good enough that game in the right ways when compared to the 6 people on the other team in order to carry.
I never see carry tracers on higher ranks either so where do you get that data? And also she still gets countered by brig not killing her on her own maybe but follow up is required that is healthy you have to work together to do stuff that is healthy don’t you agree? And if alone she still zones the tracer and a tracer who has to retreat is a win because she burned her cooldowns and achieves nothing. She is NOT overpowered and she won’t be meta.
Tracer is agile and fragile. The 0.1 second wind up on her blink would be ridiculous. Buuut the 0.1 on rewind could be debatable seeing as it’s instant right now.