The many players (in average Elo) may/not agree. But that doesn’t make your claim more valid than someone who’s outperformed the average ranks.
Since when has Mercy’s single target 55/HPS outperformed the insane healing from Bap, Ana or Moira? (Even brig if you know to proc inspire consistently) ??
If you are picking a Support just to Healbot, then you should not be surprised if you are losing and you have NO right to complain about “bad teammates” when you are one yourself.
And yes, dealing damage is wayyyy more important than healbotting. What do you gain from healbotting your tank as Mercy compared to helping killing enemy as any other support AND healing when needed?
Healbotting is a Fundamental mistake
I do agree. Stat farming only really because a problem at higher ranks which why pbsr cuts off at diamond. Once you get to the point you already have much better things to focus on anyway.
Yes but that is also one game. If that junkrat is doing that EVERY game, then there’s a problem.
This doesn’t work as a comparison unless it is also for pro overwatch. Those star players are on the same team all season. They don’t get a new team every game. Also, for pro sports people make their livelihood breaking down and analyzing stats. It’s not easy to read them and make correct conclusions.
abdullah already explained this but I recall you are a 2500 peak player. You really should stop lecturing people thousands of sr above you especially when they’ve already told you that you are wrong.
I’d even go as far to argue that a video game does a significantly better job at recording analyzing and detailing performance stats than any pro sports analyst.
You’re pivoting. And I never claimed that Mercy does the most healing. I said there are plenty of reasons where she is the best pick or a sufficient pick given the circumstances. Given that there are tons of people who have one-tricked Mercy to Diamond/Masters/GM, she’s fine in plenty of scenarios, particularly at lower ranks. My original statement still stands:
“You and I both know there are tons of scenarios to pick Mercy and pump out lots of healing, particularly in lower ranks, where keeping players alive/resurrecting them can and often does matter more than bolstering questionable damage output.”
Or are you saying this statement is false?
How do you know this person “just” healbotted or was a bad teammate in the match in question? And are you implying here that literally millions if not billions of matches have not been won simply by healbotting? Because they have. Whether this person played optimally has nothing to do with whether or not they played well enough to win, or beyond that, whether their play was central to the loss. And if you’re just going to say that not playing optimally is akin to being the reason your team lost, then literally every player is always the reason their team loses (which is absurd). It’s an empty criticism. At best you should withhold judgement, and simply admit: “I do not know whether this person played well enough to have won, given their team.”
And again, you know that how much healing vs. damage boosting a Mercy does is situational and dependent on a number of variables, and that prioritizing can be the optimal path to winning.
Again, you realize that this is situational, particularly the further down the ladder you go, but you’re pretending it’s not.
If awarding an outstanding performance, is, as a concept, logical and beneficial, then I see no reason not to make this a part of the player’s experience every time they have an outstanding performance.
Whether there are differences between one environment doesn’t matter, what matters is whether some concept is usable or has merit in either environment. If the concept of rewarding a player for an outstanding performance makes sense in one setting for X set of reasons, then the relevant question is whether it’s doable in a different setting for similar reasons. Besides, Overwatch already has PBSR, but it’s too scant.
Please feel free to accept Abduallah’s opinion as your guiding light on whatever you want as much as you like. I’ll continue thinking for myself.
My rating vs. Adbduallah’s is irrelevant. What matters is the soundness of our conclusions.
They already have this in overwatch. I’ve gained as much as 35SR and as little as 15SR for a win. I’ve lost as much as -33SR and as little as -12SR for a loss. What is the difference? The regular SR gain/loss of 23 has been adjusted to reflect my performance in the game.
You can’t win every game but if you focus on your performance you can still climb if you are playing better than others at your rank.
He isn’t pivoting, you are. The conversation was about heal botting.
You state that going mercy to pump out heals is good. That is heal botting. If you want to pump out heals swap characters. Stop trying to say that isn’t your argument when you clearly state it.
Nope! You specifically state that in certain scenarios heal botting with mercy is good. Not pick mercy and damage boost or rez, but to heal.
Obviously you aren’t damage boosting all game long, but you are one dimensionally talking about healing. The first time you even mention the rest of her kit is in the reply to abdullah telling you that you were wrong.
Because the only info he gave us was his heals? On a character that doesn’t particularly value healing??? It’s clear that he misunderstands the character or else he would have mentioned things that mercy is actually supposed to be doing.
Nobody said that. Just because you are playing sub-optimally doesn’t mean you can’t win. It does mean that you can’t blame your team though.
Wowowowow! You shouldn’t need to play properly to win! You people continue to amaze me. This guy is playing the lowest impact character in the game, and he is playing it incorrectly. I don’t care if he is the best heal botter in the world, he doesn’t deserve to win. They are called supports, not healers, there’s much more to them.
YES YOU SOLVED IT. CONGRATULATIONS. HE REACHED THAT CONCLUSION ALL ON HIS OWN!!! But yes, if you didn’t play perfectly then you are always going to be partially responsible. Nobody said that the loss is fully your fault though.
Sure, but if you find yourself healing all game and sparsely damage boosting then you should swap. He obviously didn’t and it hindered his team.
I will also accept that hitting the enemy team with my bullets are better than not. Perhaps you could call that an opinion but you’d be an idiot to disagree with it. Same goes for damage boosting. He’s also not the first person to ever say that. For some reason you seem to think that. Mercy is strictly played to pocket in pro play. Go disagree with hundreds of coaches and players that live the game.
It is irrelavent until the point where you are blatantly wrong. Then it’s easy to conclude that you are low rank for that reason. Because I know you aren’t studying vods and coaching teams to substitute for playing the game.
An outstanding performance is rewarded with a win. If you did the best on your team and still lost there is still plenty to learn. Additionally, you should never be that held up on singular matches. The variance of matchmakers means that some games are straight up unwinnable. Artificially rewarding people that aren’t winning games consistently is not the way to go.
Yes it does? The environment is different enough that it does matter. Random teammates every game vs set players is significant.
There’s a reason. PBSR is one of the things they’ve tried to work through the most. It used to exist for the whole ladder and that didn’t work out. The fact that it still exists below diamond is more than enough.
Until they can develop an algorithm that can accurately take context into consideration, for this purpose, they are misleading.
I agree. Its less about winning more sr but mitigating what you lose.
That’s just it, they amd they alone. What happens in the event of a roll? The optimal 2cp round is 2 fights won by the attackers. Not long enough to get many stats.
In theory, yes, but you have to realise who we are speaking about.
The devs haven’t exactly done much to win the communities faith.
Sounds an awful lot like pbsr.
Star players play with the same teammates. You can’t compare that to a game that is primarily played in solo queue.
No its not. Damage boost is objectively her best ability. She is played for damage boost. its not situational, its not based on circumstance, if you or your team cant make use of her m2 then you are playing the wrong hero.
maybe in gold.
gonna be completely honest pal, the only reason I brought it up is because op decided to blame their teams lack of adaptability. I genuinely don’t care what they play but as soon as they decide to place the blame on anything other than themselves, then I have an issue with it.
if the mercy is good enough. most are not. op is quite clearly included in the most of that statement.
as does blaming their teammates after 6 years of potential improvement. the game has been out far too long to blame anything other than ones own lack of skill.
Obviously false. If this were always the case, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Whether this is true or not, it’s not relevant.
There’s nothing “artificial” about it; it would simply be an extension of the ruleset. And as mentioned, PBSR is already a part of the algorithm, so neither I nor Blizzard agree with you. Moreover, I doubt the majority of the community would agree with you, since they stand to gain in the form of less time, less energy, and less frustration. You’re literally arguing against a system that rewards uncommon performance.
Yeah, let’s see how much you can chop up my original statement, edit it down, and leave parts out and then reply to the fragment of what’s left. 10/10 integrity.
Whatever the reason, like I said, it’s too scant. Anyway, this is subjective and will amount to: “no, it isn’t” “yes, it is” “no, it isn’t” circles.
The running code base already has an algorithm which takes performance-based context into consideration in the form of PBSR: so by your own heuristic, stats are not misleading, or they’re relevant enough for Blizzard to justify the allotment of points on their basis.
Further, whether special consideration should be awarded for certain types of performances doesn’t just come down to algorithms, ML, and AI, it comes down to an incentive structure, and whether or not it’s likely to motivate players who’d otherwise walk away from matches bitter and resentful. Given the community’s frustration with expending lots of effort for too little in return, there’s an argument for emphasizing individual contribution. This is already being mentioned as an important advantage of OW1 over OW2. Feeling like your team is letting you down is one of the most cited reasons for people hating/leaving the game. As with anything else, changing incentive structures has an effect on motivation.
These kinds of situations can be accounted for any numbers of ways.
It really comes down to the numbers. If PBSR has any validity as a concept, and we’ll assume it rests on an algorithm that isn’t flimsy and ridiculous, then it’s just a matter of expanding it. But considering the sheer number of people who actively throw matches or treat comp like quickplay, you cannot have a system where people who are trying are regularly told “tough luck, yeah you lost 2 less points than the widow who performed in the bottom 3% of all players.” It’s an unsustainable model. It’s been years and people are sick of it. You just do not see this type of incentive structure in the real world (even when dealing with teams), and there’s an extremely good reason for that.
Either OP doesn’t know PBSR exists, or they’re talking about expanding it so much that it’s no longer what we commonly think of when we think of PBSR.
Doesn’t matter. The principle is the same and rests on the same logic. Even if the NBA disbanded teams after every game, it would still reward high performers to motivate them and incentive high effort even when matched with people who didn’t care about winning.
So if damage boost is her best ability, why should she ever heal? Why not just use damage boost literally all the time? According to your logic, every moment she’s healing, she’s playing sub-optimally.
There are people who have one tricked Mercy to GM, so this statement can’t be true. Beyond that, there are people who play Mercy better than any other hero. Switching off would objectively be worse.
It’s objectively false that every player on the team is equally at fault for a loss. It’s also objectively true that players outperform their teammates, sometimes substantially, and aren’t the cause for the loss. Why should someone blame themselves for something that wasn’t their fault. Fault is fault. Sometimes teammates are bad; if it’s the truth, there’s nothing unethical or problematic with saying so.
We didn’t see the match, we don’t know how well they did or didn’t do, so I don’t know how you support this.
Blaming bad teammates in a post about re-thinking the rewards for individual achievement is not tangential. Bad players do exist, and do cause losses. They underperform. It happens frequently. You can argue otherwise, but it can’t be a rational argument.
I like the idea.
Honestly, I’d be down for a community driving ranking system. Clearly MM as it stands now is not doing something right, or the community wouldn’t be up in these forums so much.
If you lost with an ‘outstanding performance’, then it wasn’t outstanding enough.
It’s extremely relavent. If you put all your focus into the little number then you aren’t going to improve. If you forget the number and all the other bs you can’t control, you will have infinitely better results. It’s why you don’t see masters players complaining about their teammates because they’ve all been put into gm games and gotten absolutely slapped. Lower elo players cannot say the same so many feel entitled to higher sr.
It definitely is artificial even if you think it is a good thing. No game ever has rewarded you for losing no matter how well you did. At the end of the day, if you can’t win games then it’s all meaningless. The most you should reasonably expect is sr adjustments on game to game stats, which we have!
PBSR doesn’t reward you for losing. If you lose the game, no matter what happens you will lose sr. Gifting sr from losses is putting SR into the system artificially that shouldn’t be there. Blizzard agrees with me, every other ranked ladder agrees with me.
How did I even chop up your statement. I didn’t even add anything. If you are talking about the cut off quote it’s just to focus in on exactly what I am talking about. You are doing the same exact thing.
Fortunately Blizzard usually seems to agree with me.
Stats should play some role idd but are very hard to determine whether or not its you or your team is just bad and you superhealing 24/7 while your team is taking huge dmg. Goes for all the other stats as well. Single 100% kills is probably the only one I can think of would be great. In addition OW2 should have stats like dmg taken and healing received. Now the scoreboard is presenting something that people would be 90% guessing anyways.
Having said that, there has been posted many times the idea of true ladder where you cannot fall down and I would support that. Lowering the ladders to let’s say 250-350 in SR.
Sounds like a nightmare system where even more people would get a rank they dont deserve because they play a lot and because of that punishes players who barely play comp
I don’t know if it’s still presistent in Team Vanguard, but there on the ladder the adjustment equation to update your Rank gave you reward of skill points even if you have lost as a team, due partial individual performance was a factor in said equation, it even got published on there website, but it was period ago may they changed that anyways.
THANK YOU for pointing that out, its crazy the length people go to, to justify their fundamental mistakes and to blame others with.
Was healbotting the cause of these wins? Literally no, just because your team carried your bad gameplay doesn’t make your fundamentally wrong “playstyle” valid.
Not a coincidence either that every healbot is stuck in low to mid ranks.
They are healbotting, which is doing the absolute bare minimum, which is what got them to that low rank in the first place. Stop pretending like healbotting is a good thing.
Why are you only looking at ONE single stat seperately? How much of this 30k damage the Junkrat dealt ACTUALLY lead to a kill and wasn’t just spam damage on tanks?
This is exactly what misleads to people, they think high heals or high damage means anything and feel entitled to gain more SR or win more just because they are stat padding, when in reality they are most likely hurting their team than helping them win.
When I smurf in anything Low Masters and below, not only is it ez hardcarrying games as LUCIO, but the whole stats show.
If I play in anything from Bronze to Diamond, I quickly and easily reach the 60SR PSBR cap. Why? Because I am actually playing Lucio correctly: mostly speeding, dealing damage and killing enemies.
What does low to mid elo lucios do? They speed out of spawn at the start of the match, but then the MOMENT their teammates have taken a bit of damage, and we are talking above +95% health remaining, they switch to heals and STAY on it for the whole match while WALKING on the ground…
No wonder these lucios end up with +10k heals when they are constantly healing up spam nonmeaningful spam-damage while putting Zero effort to utilize any of his kit. They are not doing much damage, neither wallriding around to achieve different things, not looking to speed their team in for rotations or contest enemy supports, DPS or snipers.
I have coached and VOD reviewed LOTS of players as well as Lucios from most elos. The ones Plat and below ALWAYS does the above mistakes and what will force them to stay there if they dont change it.
Which is why I cringe in this thread when I hear OP feeling entitled for a win when they play this badly and then YOU defending Healbotting…
Can’t understand your argument: why would it be bad to rank up if you play a lot? And why would it punish those who play less? It almost the same as now with the exception that it would make an positive impact since one couldn’t fall down. We could leave the 3500-4000+ open ended
Because we will have an Apex Legends situation where the majority of players will reach a mid to high rank JUST because they are playing.
Literally bronze players in Apex could reach Plat and Diamond JUST by playtime alone. Which meant they ruined a LOT of matches for teammates because they were literal deadweight in these Plat+ matches