then you are completely mixing up popularity and player perception with actual strenght
it’s no different that claiming mercy was a must pick because back then ana was only really played at high ranks despite everyone hating mercy for being subpar, which led to her rework.
She has consistently been the most popular QP character, would you say she’s op? the logic isn’t that different from the one you’re using
So you’re saying only Masters+ are allowed tank variety?
Learn. F-ing. Shield. Break.
Junkrat, as an example.
Has insane damage against shields
Echo, is now very viable
He becomes balanced.
If he stays meta, you nerf him more.
If someone else becomes must-pick, you keep going because the problem still exists.
Then there is no room for “main tanks”. Turn all tanks into off-tanks.
Uneducated? There’s no need for insults.
And it’s not my opinion. It’s been a common argument for a while now when people ask for Sigma and Orisa buffs that they’re off-tanks because of their nerfs.
My argument is that if they’re “off tanks” then rein should also be made into an off-tank because they can both be very effective without being overbearing, as compared to Rein who is too effective and completely overbearing.
I agree with you. I’m just making a point.
Also, Rein is far easier to work with because he carries more barrier health solo than a sigma+orisa duo does, on top of what he can do with his other abilities.
Vs Rein, a sigma+orisa duo bring more utility and the barriers cancel out. Rein’s kit cancels out the utility of one of the duo, and the kit of rein’s off-tank cancels out the remaining duo’s utility with one entire ability left over.
That left over ability only needs to be more valuable than the difference between the Duo’s range and Rein’s hammer. This is why Zarya is so powerful with a rein. Her bubbles allow rein to go aggro safely and maximize the value of his hammer which can easily close the gap lost to sigma’s and orisa’s range.
Rein/Zarya is a broken combo because of Rein. If his barrier wasn’t worth more than both Orisa’s and Sigma’s put together they wouldn’t effectively get a free utility ability from the off-tank.
The problem is 100% Rein’s barrier health. It’s way too high.
OWL doesn’t matter. They play a different game from us. Rein is OP on live. Not in OWL.
And it’s not enough. His barrier has too much health.
Two points.
First, you’re a known Rein fanboy, so your ability to be unbiased is automatically suspect.
Second, Rein and Zarya on live have twice the pick-rate they should based on how much of the tank roster they represent (together they add up to 50% of a zero-sum pick-rate over the last month. This past week along Rein’s overall pick rate amongst tanks is at almost 40%). How do you explain that OTHER than “they are overpowered”?
Are you seriously suggesting I learn to play junkrat? Really?
You can’t be serious.
So, first off, I’m already a Junkrat main.
Second, while junk is good at breaking the barriers, he’s so bad at securing kills once they’re down that you’re basically fighting a 5v6. Also, junkrat feeds zarya charge super-hard, and guess who Rein’s most popular off-tank is?
Finally, Rein enables hitscan like Soldier, McCree, and Ashe. Guess who counters Junkrat! Hitscan.
Echo is vulnerable to hitscan just like Junkrat and Pharah. Rein enables heroes who suppress his counters. It’s brig 1.0 all over again.
Rein simply has too much barrier health. On paper his hammer’s limitations make up for the extra health, but in practice his hammer’s range can be offset by his off-tank and is further offset by the natural goal of the game being us fighting over stationary points (which naturally shrinks ranges as games progress).
Yes it does. The meta always eventually mirrors what the pro scene is doing. It takes the ladder a little while to catch up to what the pros are doing. High end players shift first, then middle ranks to a little bit of an extent, and low ranks always do what they want. The meta shift is always very slow. Like a boat turning, not a 90 degree right turn at full speed.
They are opting for other main tanks even without the shatter nerf.
Reinhardt has to actively choose between shielding and attacking, and is a melee hero. He should have the most barrier health by a significant margin. Reinhardt either has enough barrier hp to close the distance, and he is amazing, or he does not, and he is dog poop. That’s how it is.
Very cool.
Jeff has literally stated multiple times that player perception is more important to pickrate than actual hero balance. Players think these are the best combination of heroes, so they pick those heroes (and flame others for not picking those heroes). Furthermore, the game does not exist in a vacuum, and sometimes a hero gets picked a lot due to inherent synergy with another hero that is strong.
Also, if a main tank is just 1% more effective than the others (or at least people perceive that to be the case) that tank will get most of the play time. If a hero gets twice the pickrate of the next highest pick tank, that does not necessarily mean that they are twice as effective as that hero, or even that they are more effective at all.
The meta is literally about to shift back toward a dive centric meta at the top end. Top 500 players will be playing those compositions in their ranked games (they are mainly pro players), and the GM players in there games will adopt that as the meta strategy quickly. From there, low GM players and high masters will adopt it, and so on. There are diminishing returns on this, though, as the further you get down the ladder, the less perceived “meta” actually matters, or is used in practice.
Glad you think my opinion doesn’t matter though. Can’t wait to be playing more Winston soon, actually.
No it doesn’t. The whole situation of Reaper and Mei in OWL but not existing on ladder is literally why they just changed how hero pools work.
Sometimes it does follow, sometimes bits and pieces drop down, but I said a long time ago:
E V E N T U A L L Y.
Nope. Sombra Goats never made it to ladder in a meaningful way either. Nor did 3 DPS Pharmercy-Widow-Hanzo.
It’s very often a different game.
I played in Sombra goats. Meta was shifting at the top end.
This pro scene meta was around for like two weeks before 2-2-2 dropped.
Obviously not much, as Sombra’s use never got more than about 2.5%
It was far more than 2 weeks.
How are you going to tell me what happened in my games???
Not really. The Shanghai Dragons used that strategy for the entire stage 3 of the overwatch league (and dominated with it), but the other teams tried to hammer home Goats and Sombra Goats to keep trying to make it work. They were reluctant to move off of that strategy, since they had nearly perfected it. The other top tier teams were still using Goats. For that reason, the meta didn’t shift in the ladder until it became blatantly clear that the Dragons comp was superior, and beating other top tier teams trying to run Goats into them. This didn’t really happen until toward the end of Stage 3. That didn’t allow for enough time for a meta shift.
I’m saying that stats don’t show it was widely used. You got lucky/unlucky, depending on your view. You saw it happen, I’m not disputing that. But as a composition, it simply never saw the same level of use that vanilla goats saw. That’s just what the data tells me.
So 2 months, not 2 weeks.
And sure, I was following Spark last season doing goats to death because they couldn’t 3 dps or Sombra-goats effectively. They still got destroyed by Dragons.
I think you missed my point entirely, or misread something. The Shanghai Dragons ran it for a month and a half. Just about every other team in the league (especially the top tier ones) continued to run Goats or Sombra Goats during that time. It wasn’t until the last week or two that it became clear that the 3 DPS was superior.
Obviously the meta is not going to shift when you watch NYXL, Vancouver, and SF Shock curb stomp every other team with Goats or Sombra Goats. It wasn’t until the stage playoffs that it really became obvious that the Shanghai Dragons were able to run that comp effectively even against the top tier teams.
There was never enough time for a meta shift on the ladder. I played in only a handful of 3 DPS games before 2-2-2 went live.
I think for me, it was pretty obvious they were trying to force it because it was what they knew especially for Spark because they couldn’t even manage Sombra-Goats. It wasn’t just Dragons either, it was Valiant and Justice as well who were suddenly ‘good’ after sucking at Goats forever but finding value with DPS in their compositions. So the writing was on the wall for Goats.
Maybe given time it would have been a meta that trickled down - Goats did, and even in lower ranks those sorts of deathballs, albeit with DPS, continued to be emulated. But it doesn’t always happen, and how far it drips down varies a lot.
That was the point I was making.
No it doesn’t.
Meta is only played in Master and GM. At best the rest of the ranks will be slightly influenced by what happens in OWL as people who don’t have the skill try to emulate what they see and fail in various grades of spectacularity.
It’s not just the low ranks. It’s everyone below masters. It’s well over 95% of the game’s population. The impact of any kind of “meta” is very overblown.
And those tanks are losing games vs. Rein/Zarya to a hilarious degree. 50% of the total tank pick-rate (which is zero-sum), and over 50% of the wins. They’re OP. By every single metric they are OP, and it’s entirely Rein’s fault. He enables all of this.
If you limit your status to just this past week, Rein is almost 40% of tank picks just by himself while zarya is another 25%, and their win rates are higher as well.
…and it’s all Rein. He has the higher pick-rate. He’s the one being used successfully with other heroes. He’s the one enabling everyone else.
He did. And it is. However, what Jeff was talking about was heroes with high pick rates and low win-rates. Heroes like McCree, who maintains a very, very healthy win-rate in spite of sucking out-loud sometimes.
When your win-rate and pick rates are both high, we’re no longer talking about player perception over reality. We’re just talking about reality.
Of course not. That’s why their win-rate is so important. It gives context.
I never said that. I said I’m automatically assuming bias. You’re backing up your points though which is very, very good.
We’ll see. Until they substantially nerf rein, I don’t see his pick rates going anywhere anytime soon.
And, again, GM and Masters is less than 5% of the playerbase. The vast bulk of players play between gold and plat with Bronze and Silver being far more populous than Diamond and masters due to the “default” nature of bronze and silver receiving almost everyone who happens to be picking up the game for the first time (it’s easier to be bad at something than it is to be good at it).
Metas do exert some downward pressure, but it’s nowhere near as great as people think it is.
god i’m so glad you are not in charge of the balancing
there is no room for main tanks. Turn all tanks into off tanks
then I suppose we can turn every Jungler in League into a Top Laner 
To my never-ending horror, someone just like you probably is.
Kaplan is a plat rein main 
Youre not 1vs1. Youre 6vs6. Learn to play with your team