You very much might be right there and i too think Hog is too reliant on his high burst dmg atm to even be considered a tank, seems simple enough to maybe give him 2 charges of hook but pull back on his damage if that would work…? Seems like hell to play against though…
Maybe instead of a full stun, it would just lash people like Queens Knoife…?
They also have tried giving part of his take a breather value to his close teammates once, maybe they werent too off on that either?
:pepehmm: So, while I’m a fan of OW1, and a major support player… I like most or all of your support changes. My big concern is how I don’t think Genji was touched on enough and how you’ve glossed over my biggest complaint, which is there’s basically no CC anymore. Some CC is required to help out Support, since many characters were countered by CC, and now those characters can basically skip right in and annihilate Support even if they fight back.
I’m also still a fan of reducing Hanzo’s arrow damage to where he can’t 1-shot 200hp heroes, but I’m sure I’ll get flamed and told it’s not an issue (despite a Hanzo resetting me back to spawn 7 times in a row.)
In the end, imo Moira AND Mercy need reworks. Mercy still falls into the category of like… old OW1 hero design and balance philosophy (like near release of OW1.) Design philosophies will change over time, improve, ideas for how they should work and play change, but Mercy’s stayed way too stagnant; and I like playing Mercy A LOT, and I’m saying this. I dunno, as long as we don’t go back to GOATS or dive-delete-leap I’d appreciate having a slower TTK/pace to the game.
Well, Gengu does suffer as well with his dive buddies getting touched on and i think its pretty close 'nough , maybe completely reverting his spread buff from bk when would be fair as well, poor Gengu was never viable though so i fear for his strenght really, when Tracer is still getting used over him on the OWLS and stuff.
And well, CC is just not quite fun to play around with, and i dont think heavy CC is necessarily required, we must shy away from it and try and nerf them to compesate for the fact there are less CC in the game is what i say.
Hanzo is really not that gud atm, hes really risky to get value out of, if you’re getting deleted so often i think theres a bit of tank/dps diff going on there, you should be more worried about a good Souj instead from midrange i think.
plus… 
HOW DARE YOU i’ll have you know i love HANZO to death i even read all of the McHanzo fanfics, how dare you even suggest such a nerf to my boi!? Diesofcringe
Yea pretty much agree with you there, they seem to be workin on a Moira one for a while now, most peeps really are not enjoying her atm so theres even that, Mercy as i said on muh post just is so hard to change when whatever they do to her might risk losing like half the support player-base…
So its tough… idk how to go about her but she definetly aint as bad as i thought she would be on 5v5 but isnt quite there either.
I regret that I have to disagree, given you’re such a nice, and amendable person 
Thank you for that. I’m not saying to load the game up with CC like before in OW1. It was a CC nightmare in OW1, however I’m saying things sorta like Zenny’s melee. Give support something so that it’s not “lul play Lucio or Ana if u dont wanna die 2 gengee.” It feels bad right now to play support because of just… how absurd it can be.
I love knowing that two dudes are madly in love each other, but gdi, I still don’t think he should be able to reset someone with a singular arrow that may or may not be a random flick of the wrist into the beach ball sized aim assist zone.
They’re already bleeding support players currently because of support basically being free kills for flankers, which in turn charges their ults super fast, then they lay them on the rest of the team after a double support wipe. I feel it might be a “lose the arm to save the body” situation, and if no one agrees with me, we can at least agree that it’s better to make an attempt to bring some of the OLD heroes up to the modern standard, right? OW1 released in 2016 I think, and Mercy’s had one rework, but still feels like she plays like she did in 2016. Time to dust the cobwebs off her, and get to tinkering.
I
If I were to change roadhog to be in line with how tanks work now I would
Lower his spread on primary and secondary fire by maybe 15-20% depending on how much you nerf his damage.
Nerf breather to back to 300 with a lingering effect on his team that reduces damage by 10% and gives 15 hps for 4 seconds after the ability is activated with maybe a 5 meter radius?
Nerf his damage to 135 or 120 on primary/secondary fire but revert the fire rate change hog got back in 2020
Nerf his hook damage to 5.
nerf his hook range to 15 meters
Put hook on a 6-second cooldown down from 8
Hook apply a 20% slow and 20% reduction of heals for 2.5 seconds after the hook animation finishes.
Maybe during hogs ult give him some cc resistance or something.
I think that’s pretty reasonable for roadhog
Please disagree, i’m here to debate things not force my opinions on anyone 
But i can see how support players really do feel very helpless at times compared to OW1, i for one have the most time on Supp in OW1 since i flexed alot and it really feels jarring having to actually have to deal with the damage role now, its absolutely something we have to take into consideration in designing how Supports are played to give more ways to to fight back in a fun way but it doesnt necessarily have to be a CC at all, things like Kiriko being immune and/or insane mobility also comes to mind but…
its something i think we have to learn to deal with as supp players because if the damage role is enabled at all, its whats going to happen, supports will get the target on their back, we cant really help that aspect of how the game works.
I actually havent read any of them i’m joking around… nothing wrong with that stuff tho 
, shipping is just a mystery to me…
Well, but speaking about getting hit in the face by Hanzo’s BIG HARD hitting arrows, it really is just the nature of projectiles i think, when u start to think about it the same way you think about any random nature of the game, i think you’be more chill with it.
It sort of is a lose the leg (your body support) and save the arm (your best weapon) situation right now , i think, as a flex player, it might be the right way to go for the overral fun of the game… its just the nature of how its more fun to see the DPS’s pop off, even on the expense of Supports for the public and stuff…
Yea, its a slow process trying to get all of the cast up to speed yea, but first they should try and get a more stable and balanced meta i think to then finish up on narrowing down where they want such out of place characters i think.
That seems like a great idea, i salute you, its not over complicated with a decent amount of numbers to change around, though Whole Hog being transformation now i think has made it sooo much better as an ult idk if it really needs CC res, i wonder if your changes are working with my suggested cleanse Take a Breather burf or not, cuz i think Tanks shouldnt be so darn hard countered by a single pick (unless they are another tank pick,maybe not even that) as Hog is with anti and to some extent Discord.
That’s another bone I have to pick with OW2 devs. The current ways to counter having a giant “kick my butt back to spawn” sign on support’s back is mobility, damage, or screaming at your teammates. Only Lucio, Kiriko, and Moira have real mobility. Damage-wise… it’s seemingly only Moira who has enough to deal with the aforementioned “dive-kill-leap” issue. As far as immunity goes, Kiriko gets one (1) second of immunity. If timed insanely well? Sure block the genji strike from his ult, but that… won’t necessarily save you if he’s looking to pick on supports. A little under half of the support roster has a way to even attempt to deal with the situation.
I’ve tried looking at it that way, and I might be bias given that I go to peek to do some damage (just you know, the thing supports are suppose to do when there’s no healing to be done), and I get me a niiiiice, biiiiiiig, loooooong, haaaard… arrow. Arrow to the face, and we lose the objective because I have to run back. Maybe I’m bad at peaking, or cheeky tight LoS’s but a hanzo peek>flick>arrow has GREATLY annoyed me many times, nearly every game I’ve played.
I’m okay if the devs publicly come out and admit what they’re doing. I like hearing the acknowledgement that there’s an issue. If the Devs just pop in to a stream, or post on their Twitter something like “Hey, we’re working on dealing with the meta, once we’re in a good state, we’ll look at our older cast to bring them into the modern OW2 setting.” I’d love it. Blizzard’s track record does NOT lend credence to the good will the playerbase gives them. They just need to communicate, especially with how long my relationship is with them. That’s nearly an 18 year record, and it’s like having a friend that doesn’t talk to you for months at a time, and lives rent-free in your head.
I’d love to hear a game plan for the studio working on OW2. Fix the meta, update the old roster, maybe even look to players for suggestions. What I care about is change, not my version of changes. I can work with a few of the issues that annoy me as long as changes are being planned, tested, and implemented. Also we still have to talk about that HOTDOG WATER of a monetization policy, but this isn’t a thread about that.
Yeap, again that comes down to giving the damage role more power, now its even more so up to your dps to make the right plays, in the right time to save their team from situations that back in OW1 didnt really exist because supports were protected under the two tanks.
Like, i think by nerfing enough of the power-creep and stuff, like muh post, we see a little bit of slowing down on the game’s pace and that in itself gives a bit of more breathing room for supports to actually play the game a bit more.
I think i have a better perspective to be able to deal with Hanzo’s seeing as hes my close second most played DPS in QP at least so i just kinda understand that getting nailed by Hanzo is something that , y’know is something that you can learn to avoid well enough and its not really something about him being too strong or anything.
Ya, these past two to three years have really be maddening for any type of trust anyone has had with Activision Blizz, i was never any type of fanboy or anything, OW has been their ony game i’ve put a significant time on but i’m sliiiightly hopeful with the recent Microsoft stuff that they maaaay change a bit of their ways buut …
And yaa trying to manifest frequent enough developer updates with Mr. Aaron and the team, and holy moly yea that throbbing SENSE OF PRIDE AND ACCOMPLISHMENT.
All in all, I’d be willing to experience the version of OW you’ve come up with. I’m still gonna hold my reservations on Hanzo, but that’s just me. I’d like to see them do everything in stages, and I feel like your step is a good first stage before touching on other heroes that are either too far above or too far below. Blizz wants OW2 to not be like another certain isometric moba game that may or may not balance through means of either total annihilation of a character or absurd OPness of another.
This would also be a good tipping point for the devs to just look at themselves, and make their promise. Do they want a good game, or do they want crap? Honestly, I think outright saying their design philosophy with OW2, affirming what they want, and promising that they’re going to go about it for the community would be the best one-post blurb they could shove out, and then continue to honor it.
Well they did come up with a blog post just now with a good idea on their plans on the balance of the game, pretty decent read :
Alot of what i was expecting there, not really surprised on having balance changes hit in the start of the next season, they did say they were trying to do something like that i’m pretty sure when first launching the game so , ya… and its not the game is in a very terrible state i believe that waiting till season 2 has definetly its merits.
Ehhh… after reading it over, they’re focusing too much on win rate. I know it’s a team game, but more players flock of Sym to counteract Genji leaving other heroes down a fair bit, and sure I guess the argument could be made that if there’s such an overwhelming amount of people flocking to counter Genji, he must be balanced, right? Well, even if a hero has a 53% win rate (well-balanced ofc,) that leads me to the question whether it’s at all skill levels, or is this just averaged across the… what? 25 total brackets? Bad genji players picking genji lower his win rate, counter-balancing the good ones who may have a 50, 60, 70% win rate. I’m probably not going to play until season 2 imo given supports basically got ignored in the blog post, or if I do, it’ll be a few hours here and there. Overall, 5/10 blog post.
Welp, i do agree they seem to focus far too much on Winrate on their blogpost, i guess they think that going into too much detail about pickrate and all of the data that they have, like that is too much detail for their player-base and they dont wanna be too open with data cuz that in itself has its drawbacks?
I’m no game dev though, and at the very least i think the game balance is on a playable enough state to not need immediate response , yet, but we’ll c.
I get that, too much info gives players a reason to judge others, but not enough info (like now) kind’ve disheartens me when they’re seemingly just saying “lol nah, everything is fine.” Sure, everything’s fine, I’ll just find Symmetra in every single game I play from now on. Why? Because Genji has a “good winrate that is well balanced*”
Maybe I’m too doom and gloom, and maybe the game is in a good state, but I’m tired of getting yelled at by teammates for “not healing” when trying to keep myself alive, or trying to not get picked off by the winnie+genji dive. Or the Winnie+sombra dive. Or the genji-sombra dive. Or the winnie+genji+sombra dive with a nano’d ult-ing genji. Or the Sojourn 1-shotting with their EM rail. Or the Hanzo arrow as I said before. Or the moira warping in and just holding right click with the occasional E tap. Or my Moira going for the warp and leaving me to cower around corners and non-stop LoS peak to heal the tank that has all the anger of the enemy team’s nicotine and caffeine-deprived genji on them before he turns towards me like he just ran a rail of SNIFFANY juice and saw me as a threat to his human existence. 
Maybe a little too much, but I’m leaving it since these situations are 80% of my games right now.
Take it from me, i’ve been following the game since the very start of the open betas, you take their words from blogspots with a huge grain of salt, they like to keep things optimistic, when they say things are looking okay, they probbably mean they are working on stuff that its not really okay and stuff like that.
Yeah, i suggest you might take a little time off if your experience in-game is that commonly wack and take a gud nap or touch some grass , in my experience, the game feels like its still on some level of experimetation with the vast majority of the player-base still, so taking solid conclusions is a bit hard, a big reason i feel like their decision to push back the changes to S2 might have some up-sides.
Even these Notes here i would still run through a good internal testing first and give at least a week before maybe pushing a few to live.
And at the very least they seem to imply that they see that Gengu has a strong win-rate so thats pretty much a confirmed nerf to the ninjaboi.
Just gonna note for the tanks cause it’s a lot.
For your Zarya nerf suggestion, is that 20% change a -10 from the total charge or you literally mean -20 less? If you mean 50%->40% then I guess maybe, but I think it just needs a slightly faster decay out of combat bonus or something.
I think the Power Block change for Doomfist is a overall nerf because it’s harder to gain full charge from suddenly blocking certain attacks and most players will be able to react to hold back their shots to charge it after the .5s. So, it will overall make it harder to gain a charged rocket punch for kills, fighting a team, or mobility.
Those are scary changes for Junker Queen.
The charge idea for Orisa’s Javelin throw and spin is interesting!
I’m kinda indifferent about the other changes or not really for it honestly. Maybe because a number here or there is a bit too much for my preference. Like I think tanks should be able to handle themselves against a team for a bit and some changes might go too far making them not as viable.
Probably what I’mma do. Just every game is filled to the brim with “What? Oh, the Hanzo got the arrow.” or “Okay, bye Moira…” or any of the other things. I know there’s a grain of salt for the blog post. In the end, until Support get their needed hand of help, I’m very, very disinclined to queue or play, especially knowing I’ll get basically nothing from the BP since it’s either lame, or locked behind the premium BP. Still, on topic I like your idea for balancing.
oooh, i can see how that can get confusing, i suppose since its also on a 1-100 system so i get ya so lets try and give an example : “20% less Energy gained per damage taken” would be like…: Hypothetically, if she would get 40 charge from a firestrike, now she gets 32, or say 25 charge from a Cass shot now she gets 20.
And also since i guess i didnt make it clear enough, maximum damage per bubble would also be reduced by 20%.
it does overral nerf the ability against non CC and against unexperienced players but i do believe experienced players can more easily react to his block and since he doesnt really apply any threat while blocking can just deny charging it more easily,
Merging the value of the ability to the start of it makes it overral still strong enough, and Doom might be stronger than alot of people give him credit for, especially after alot of the strong tanks and Sombrero get nerfed, i dont wanna buff him too much.
Real, her ultimate is already possibly one of her biggest strenghts, making it stronger might be asking for trouble but… this is taking into consideration Kiriko is a thing and shes gonna be trouble for Queen + Carnage prolly needs a bit of help.
And… characters need a strenghts, i think having Queen’s be her ultimate being strong sound about fair, maybe?
I really like it too, right? could make playing her so much more fun.
I don’t think that CC abilities and debuff hurt tanks nearly as much now. I do think it would be cool for most tanks to have a cleanse ability in some way even if its weak and only part of the abilities job.
Sig had suc/sheild
Dva had DM
Zar has bubble
rein has shield
JQ had shout
Ball doesn’t have anything maybe they could do something with his roll when hits max speed
Doom doesn’t have anything but maybe his block should cleanse him on use
Winston had bubble shield
But hog doesn’t have anything and it kinda separates him from the other tanks
In the context of all the tank changes, the Orisa stuff seems fine.
But I’d rather see her ult be less…meh? Like, I’ve gotten kills with it but it feels like people can get out of it too easily before you can charge it at all. If she could get a 2nd wave of pull in half way through the ramp up or something, I think that’d go a long way to evening it out.
The thing is, at least right now, alot of the tanks dont really NEED a cleanse ability cuz there are other ways for them to defend themselves/their team against the big bad Anti-nade, like the ones you mentioned, nor are too crippled by said big baddie like Ball/Doom that can try and run and away/are strong Dive options against Ana,
But Hog… not only depends on healing himself, has no way to defend against Nade nor can run away, neither dive Ana, its far too much downsides, making Ana counter him too hard, is why they either have to move him away from self-healing or have him able to cleanse himself as it stands, i believe.
I agree that her ulti is so underwhelming atm, it has some potential, given the fact it gives her a free fortify on activation and is so fast to activate/cant easily be countered by a D.M, but yea…
Right now, it feels just as bad as Meteor Strike if not worse, at least giving her back a charge of one her abilities would sorta work the same way Meteor Strike works by giving DF’s cooldowns back faster, but i guess they can go many ways to buff it, maybe simply speeding up the damage amping would sorta do the trick? I wonder.