closer to goal, is it means its not there yet
doesnt that sentence only had 1 meaning that is not enough?
since they dont achieve the goal yet, so something need to be done
closer to goal, is it means its not there yet
doesnt that sentence only had 1 meaning that is not enough?
since they dont achieve the goal yet, so something need to be done
it could have nothing to do with more buffs to him, instead being nerfs to things that inhibit his individual performance
Nope. Think of it in terms of a malfunctioning elevator.
The goal is the 5th floor but for some reason it only goes to the 3rd floor. You work on the elevator a bit. Now it only goes to the 6th floor. Technically closer but higher then the goal.
Closer to the mark does not mean under the mark.
she said closer, not over the goal
lets say u have a target goal of getting $20000 income this month,
if u get $18.000 u said it was closer to the goal
but if u had like $30000 u would said i had it over the goal, NOT CLOSER
Yes, she said closer. Not under the goal either.
Your money example is a different context because raising funds is a MINIMUM goal and anything beyond that is surplus and still a positive thing. Where as balancing a character does not consider overshooting the goal a good thing.
The English language is context based. The context of “closer to the goal” can mean either under or over.
That’s because hitscan just out shines all other types of DPS heroes. If they want more Genji played then nerf nearly all hitscan primary damage. This will open the door for most other DPS heroes as well.
Yeah I made a very similar post just few hours ago. Dev’s post really does imply that Genji is not there yet, as in, still a bit weaker.
Read the last sentence…bringing Genji in line with other mobile burst damage heroes.
Genji’s clear not “in line” with Echo and Doom when it comes to burst damage. He’s far weaker than Echo at bursting down tank and far more unreliable than Doomfist at instakilling a squishy.
I’m truly looking forward to seeing more Genji and less Echo. His role should’ve never been replaced by a character that can turn into a third Tank. The only reason hes played at all is due to his fanbase.
What…The…F***?! Just make everyone DPS already. If they’re not done buffing already broken Genji, then everyone should be DPS to even the playing field.
That’s because hitscan just out shines all other types of DPS heroes.
Hitscan isn’t replacing Genji. The dev post spelled it out already. If teams are running dive comps, they’re going to play Echo or Doom on the flex instead of Genji. He’s just the worst option. It’s not about being countered, it’s about being inferior.
There are 17 heroes in “Damage”, but there’s really, like, 4 different sub roles within that category. You can’t think of balance like they’re all the same.
thats a terrible comparison. with money its basically “the more the better”, if you get more than your goal you still reached the goal. with balance they want to get it as close as possible meaning the buffs may or may not take him too far and they might have to go back on some of them.
you are really misquoting the devs with a topic like that, you make it seem like its something official.
Right now his niche is his ultimate, if they are going to buff his core kit (which I’m all for) they really need to nerf his ultimate.
Maybe the answer is to speed up his Shurikens travel speed.
At the moment, his primary fire feels a little syrupy… and kinda jittery because of the three ‘separate’ throws. But if they flew faster and closer together, then maybe they’d feel a bit more responsive.
Echo’s Tri-shot perhaps feels better because all three fire at the same time and they’re fired at 75m/s compared to Genji’s Shurikens at 60m/s.
Maybe they could even spread out over long distances like Tri-shot to stop him from becoming a sniper.
Also, I honestly think that average run speed and gravity need to be increased in overwatch. it’s crazy how slow the game feels compared to other FPSs. And (for Genji specifically) double jumping leaves you hanging for sooooo long. The game will always favor hitscan heroes as long as movement is slow enough for them to excel. An average run speed from 5-6 across the board would be ideal, I think.
I really hope OW doesn’t become an insta-kill fest, where the goal is who cheeses the other player 1st with some instkill nonsense. We already have Hanzo, Widow, Reaper, Roadhog and d00m.
If someone wants cheesy 1-shot PvP they can play Destiny 2, where literally every ult and every special weapon 1-shots and snipers have otherwordly aim assist. Instakills make the game feel cheesy and take away the competitive nature of it. Instakill is not skill.
Genji’s clear not “in line” with Echo and Doom when it comes to burst damage.
According to you. We don’t know what the Dev team believes.
read the last sentence, the keyword is closer… so he not there yet…
It could also mean some nerfs. They specifically said they are trying to make his niche being strong against hit scan. The problem right now is the knock on effect of making him also way stronger against projectile dps. So, if they want his niche to be fighting hit scan, they will need to rein him in in other areas.
The problem with these changes are they make him a crazy strong counter to hit scan and projectile heroes. Which means he counters most of the heroes in the roster. Which is definitely not ‘in line with other heroes.’
Genji’s clear not “in line” with Echo and Doom when it comes to burst damage. He’s far weaker than Echo at bursting down tank and far more unreliable than Doomfist at instakilling a squishy.
First sentence is partially correct, second one is missing the forest from the trees.
There are 17 heroes in “Damage”, but there’s really, like, 4 different sub roles withing that category. You can’t think of balance like they’re all the same.
Correct. One wonders if we’ll get another builder at launch in OW2, though I imagine Sojourn will probably be the only new “damage”-role hero.
Right now his niche is his ultimate, if they are going to buff his core kit (which I’m all for) they really need to nerf his ultimate.
This is also, largely inaccurate.
Maybe the answer is to speed up his Shurikens travel speed.
It’s fast enough.
At the moment, his primary fire feels a little syrupy… and kinda jittery because of the three ‘separate’ throws. But if they flew faster and closer together, then maybe they’d feel a bit more responsive.
Overwatch is the only FPS that I know of that has 3 or 4-round bursts that can be seperated into different trajectories. Baptiste’s and Lucio’s guns follow similar patterns, although the former’s is hitscan.
Echo’s Tri-shot perhaps feels better because all three fire at the same time and they’re fired at 75m/s compared to Genji’s Shurikens at 60m/s.
Mostly, the travel speed is to account for the fact that Echo will be at greater attacking distances from the air than Genji will be.
Maybe they could even spread out over long distances like Tri-shot to stop him from becoming a sniper.
Fan (RMB) already does this and in the recent experiment, they narrowed the angle.
Also, I honestly think that average run speed and gravity need to be increased in overwatch. it’s crazy how slow the game feels compared to other FPSs. And (for Genji specifically) double jumping leaves you hanging for sooooo long. The game will always favor hitscan heroes as long as movement is slow enough for them to excel. An average run speed from 5-6 across the board would be ideal, I think.
Most players here on this board seem to complain about the opposite. Complaints about spamming shots from “snipers” and Doomfist’s Rocket Punch given that these basic attacks and abilities take more than a second to charge. Overwatch’s pacing is pretty quick, but it has slowed a lot recently as more healing and tanking/mitigation has been introduced.
To be fair, there are also some fundamental problems with the map designs a clear lack of instruction or tutorials to help new players get acclimated with what they’re supposed to be doing. There’s also a lot of misperception.
It could also mean some nerfs. They specifically said they are trying to make his niche being strong against hit scan.
Not what they said.
The problem right now is the knock on effect of making him also way stronger against projectile dps. So, if they want his niche to be fighting hit scan, they will need to rein him in in other areas.
This makes no sense. Projectile heroes in the damage-role are; Echo, Hanzo, Junkrat, Pharah, Symmetra and Torbjorn. All of them fight at ranges greater than Genji’s. Two of them are builders and are less reliant on their main fire (or alternative fire in the case of Symmetra).
The only projectile hero that would excel in the same effective ranges as Genji would be Junkrat, but he can also play a lot more defensive and control/deny space better than Genji ever will.
Genji cannot kill Torbjorn’s turret alone, or without deflect, and Symmetra’s beams and sentries have an advantage over Genji. Hanzo fights better at mid-range (or the same effective range as Ashe). Both Pharah and Echo fly, and neither one encroaches on the other on similar terms. Genji isn’t making Echo or Pharah weaker, either. So, again, the comments about makes no sense.
The problem with these changes are they make him a crazy strong counter to hit scan and projectile heroes. Which means he counters most of the heroes in the roster. Which is definitely not ‘in line with other heroes.’
This is largely a false and hyperbolic statement. Hard counters do not exist in Overwatch and never have.
Not what they said.
They said:
In this experiment, we tested pushing his strength towards dealing with hitscan heroes
Projectile heroes in the damage-role are; Echo, Hanzo, Junkrat, Pharah, Symmetra and Torbjorn. All of them fight at ranges greater than Genji’s.
And hit scan fight at ranges greater than Genji’s. That is why Genji has the mobility to get in close.
And you are not accounting for the healers that need projectile to even have a chance to fight back.
Point is, there is a lot of additional effects beyond making him stronger against hit scan. And without something to rein that in, he will be the MUST have pick.
This is largely a false and hyperbolic statement. Hard counters do not exist in Overwatch and never have.
Junkrat vs Pharah. Junkrat vs Genji for that matter. Winston vs Reaper. Zen vs Genji. Hammond vs Mei. Just to name a few. Not sure what your definition of ‘hard counter’ is. But those are just a few examples of match ups that as so 1 sided that they can effectively shut down a hero to the point the only really good answer is to swap. Sure it is technically possible to out play the counter. But the reality is you have to be A LOT better to do it. To the point that it just isn’t going to happen in all but the rarest of cases.
And hit scan fight at ranges greater than Genji’s. That is why Genji has the mobility to get in close .
Technically, no they don’t. Hitscan heroes suffer falloff damage and most of that falloff occurs at the 20/30 meter range or less (Soldier, McCree, Reaper, Tracer, Sombra). Those that have longer range, such as Ashe and Widowmaker can challenge Genji at greater distances.
Since Genji is a projectile-based hero, he is subject to travel time on his projectiles. Since his projectiles travel at 60 meters per second (that means in 1 second, the shuriken will travel 60 meters), he can ideally fight at 30 meters, since at that space, he shurikens will reach their target in half a second. Because his Swiftstrike works as a finisher and because it’s travel distance is limited to 15 meters, ideally, Genji wants to approach targets and effectively finish them off at 15 meters. Effectively this is about the same range as the above mentioned hitscan heroes, but he is not as limited as they are when it comes to fighting at a distance (but for accuracy, prediction and travel time, the closer the better).
And you are not accounting for the healers that need projectile to even have a chance to fight back.
Because what I was replying to made no mention of supports. Nearly all of them have projectiles and similar travels speeds or faster. In the case of Baptiste, he is hitscan and his optimal range is similar to Genji and other hitscans (just slightly longer).
Point is, there is a lot of additional effects beyond making him stronger against hit scan. And without something to rein that in, he will be the MUST have pick.
Burden of proof is on you with this. You need elaborate here, because otherwise this is just a bad statement that borders on hyperbole.
Junkrat vs Pharah.
Not a hard counter. Junkrat can reach similar perches that Pharah can, Pharah isn’t immune to Frag Launcher, Concussion Mines or Traps, either.
Junkrat vs Genji for that matter.
Also not a hard counter, should be fairly obvious that this is an even fight.
Winston vs Reaper.
Winston has a 700 HP barrier he can play around, and plenty of damage to eat away at Reaper. It may not be in his advantage, but he can still win.
Zen vs Genji.
Also not a hard counter.
Hammond vs Mei.
Again, not a hard counter.
But those are just a few examples of match ups that as so 1 sided that they can effectively shut down a hero to the point the only really good answer is to swap. Sure it is technically possible to out play the counter. But the reality is you have to be A LOT better to do it. To the point that it just isn’t going to happen in all but the rarest of cases.
Heroes have advantages and disadvantages, none of those disadvantages are so crippling that they cannot be played against, but it is obviously going to be an uphill battle, you don’t necessarily have to be better. Teamwork will always win out in the end.
Technically, no they don’t.
Technically yes they do. Your problem is,
he can ideally fight at 30 meters
That is not Genji’s ideal distance. He actually wants to be inside 15m. And even better if he is right in on top of them. Not only does it help his primary get all hits, it also starts opening up secondary shot options. It also helps his avoidance and his movements are harder to track at close range, particularly when jumping over people. And it puts him in position to take advantage of a low target for swift strike. So, close up his damage is MUCH higher and he is harder to hit. Sure, he will poke at further when it is dangerous for him to come in. But, that is more him being threatened out, not because he wants to be there. And as soon as the opportunity presents he does want to close in where he can do his ideal level of damage.
Burden of proof is on you with this. You need elaborate here, because otherwise this is just a bad statement that borders on hyperbole.
You just aren’t paying attention. Lets make it simple, deflect is not a tool only used against hit scan. It is actually more effective against projectile because you can react to the shot without having to anticipate. If you buff that ability it makes him stronger against projectile as well. It is really not that complicated.
Not a hard counter. Junkrat can reach similar perches that Pharah can, Pharah isn’t immune to Frag Launcher, Concussion Mines or Traps, either
Wow, just wow. I hope you don’t really think that. Junkrat going after Pharah is just stupid. She is MUCH, MUCH harder for him to hit than her to hit him. And that is assuming she is even close enough to hit. Junkrat going after Pharah is just stupid. His best bet is to hide from her and hope his team deals with her as he can’t. And she can take whatever angle on him she wants.
Also not a hard counter, should be fairly obvious that this is an even fight.
Not even remotely close. Slowest and easiest to dodge projectiles in the game vs one of the hardest heroes to hit in the game. Not to mention the immune to everything Junkrat can do ability. The massive mobility advantage. Bottom line, if a Genji loses to a Junkrat he got seriously out played.
Winston has a 700 HP barrier he can play around, and plenty of damage to eat away at Reaper. It may not be in his advantage, but he can still win.
If the Reaper is even half as good and the Winston, Winston’s choices are leap out or die. You can shield dance all you want, you will be hit with some shots, Reaper will get self heals and he will damage the Winston down. So, you might dance for a bit, but you still are at the run or die choice.
Also not a hard counter.
Also is. Zen is basically free kills to Genji. If Genji loses to Zen he got hard core out played.
Again, not a hard counter.
Again, she is. She can literally stop everything he does.
Heroes have advantages and disadvantages, none of those disadvantages are so crippling that they cannot be played against
Against someone even kind of close to you in skill, they are absolutely crippling.
but it is obviously going to be an uphill battle, you don’t necessarily have to be better.
By definition, if you have an uphill battle against someone you have to be better to win. Simple as that.
Teamwork will always win out in the end
Sure, teamwork against a counter hero will help. Like say you team pick that heroes counter. But, all things equal (both teams having the same level of teamwork) a counter hero will always win. That is what makes them a counter.
And seriously, I get tired of this: ‘Well you only have to have teamwork to…’ argument. Yes teamwork is helpful. But the reality is that teamwork happens on both sides. The expectation in these kinds of discussion is that both sides have roughly equal levels of teamwork. Doesn’t matter if it OWL level teamwork or nobody says and word and does their own thing. Typically at all levels it will average out to the same amount for both sides. And balance should be discussed based on both sides having the same amount. The answer to balance is never 'just have your team have more teamwork.