Mercy with old rez would of caused more diversity

You argument wasn’t that Resurrect didn’t have counterplay during its cast; your argument was that Resurrect had no counterplay, an assertion that is blatantly false. When that counterplay takes place isn’t important to whether or not an ability has counterplay.

And once again, you go off listing counters to Transcendence and Sound Barrier that are… just as effective, or more effective when used against Resurrect.

And you can literally kill a team that just got revived with any of these with greater ease.

Except it does. You listed one in your last post:

You’re restating your position without addressing any counterpoints.

Cool. What’s your point in stating this?

Then killing the team after Transcendence/Sound Barrier has been activated isn’t counterplay, and we’re back to square one.

And using Transcendence/Sound Barrier is literally forcing the enemy team to fight you through those ultimates or lose to you, which means those respective ults worked.

Insert any ultimate into that sentence, and you have a true statement. Stop going for the double standards. You’re not good at masking them.

And the enemy still had to waste more time/resources/ults to counter (Insert literally anything here).

You’re implying another condition that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in… well, any state of Overwatch’s existence: Countering is supposed to be easy and require no resources.

I’m supposed to be able to just waltz out of Graviton Surge and ignore it because it’s not counterplay if I have to commit resources to counter it!

I’m not opposed to mass-Resurrect coming back with a cast time in exchange for more power in Mercy’s base kit, but that’s not the point of my response. The assertion that mass-Resurrect had no counterplay is a myth, and I’m sick of seeing people regurgitate it as late as 2020.

Your take depends upon a series of dishonest assumptions.


The only reason you pick Mercy is for tempo rez so they obviously haven’t fixed that


Lmao, “fix”? Resurrect is central part of Mercy, whenever developers like it or not. If anything, they enforced it, by nerfing everything else.

Can they “fix”, so she isn’t all about her matrix? Or Roadhog, so he isn’t all about his hook?

What’s next - “fix” Widowmaker, so headshots aren’t central part of her kit?

No, it doesn’t. Just because I have a different view on the subject doesn’t mean I’m being dishonest, and it’s a sad outlook to think that way. I’d make the assertion that the majority of game devs, pro players, and pro Mercy players would agree with me, are they all being dishonest too? Is EeveeA being dishonest because she’s said the same things about mass rez in the past? What about Kaz or Yuno or Zyuun or all the other top Mercy players?

You claiming that I am being “dishonest” for disagreeing with you is implying that your opinions on the topic are fact, when they are not. Your views are subjective, as are mine. Your views are not truth or fact, and so me having opposing views does not make me dishonest.

After the rework, E rez had no counterplay as well while it was instant. She flew in, instantly rezzes a single teammate, and the rez was complete. No counterplay. Killing the teammate again afterwards isn’t counterplay. Mass rez was just that version of E rez with no LoS, a 300% bigger range, and it gave Mercy invulnerability. Same lack of counterplay, only further amplified by the invuln buffs.

That’s my take on it, and you’re not convincing me otherwise. :woman_shrugging: If that’s me being “dishonest”, then oh well I guess.


No it’s…not. Do you even play Mercy in higher tiers or know why people pick her? Mercy is currently picked to pocket certain DPS with healing and damage boost, not for rez. Rez is a non-factor in the reason you pick her and hasn’t been a factor for the past year. It’s literally always been damage boost and the ability to peel for them against dives/etc. Rez is not nearly consistent enough midfight value for it to be a motivation to pick her and hasn’t been for a while, not in the last year of metas at least.

The last time she was picked for rez was when it was instant, and then when it had a cast time it was valuable for double sniper meta to allow her widow to play more aggressively. Rez is not what is motivating people to pick her, damage boost is. As well as her mobility and ability to self peel whilst keeping her backline and second support alive.

ex) In OWL thus far she has been picked to pocket a Pharah with heals/damage boost, or to pocket a Genji with heals/damage boost to help him build blade fast and then she Valked to pocket his blade. There was about 3 rezzes from all of the 5 times she was picked. Damage boost > rez in terms of picking her right now and has been for a while.

This shows a very clear lack of understanding of the current state of Mercy or the game.

Stop using Appealing to authority as a basis for a logical argument. That is a known fallacy. Also Eeveea went back on their opinions about old rez :clown_face:

You absolutely need to read Titanium’s In-depth reasoning on the dynamics of old rez vs valk here: Why I Have Yet to Not Despise Mercy's Current State

After I consumed this work of literature, I felt elated and soar to new heights unimaginable to man. I felt like a stallion galloping through an orchard of apple trees. Except the tree’s apple’s were gem-like and geometrically sublime to gaze. Consuming these fruits of knowledge melted the borders of my mind and an immaculate light show that rivals the wonders of the world entertained my entire being.

Read Titanium’s thread that I linked for you. It is the most popular thread for a reason

We don’t know how strong old mercy could be in a 2-2-2 envinronment.

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Show me where :clown_face: because I’ve seen her say multiple times she disliked the lack of counterplay and didn’t want it back, and then even again during the Mercy main streamer summit on Twitch she said the same things.

I’ve already read that, and I quite literally said I liked their suggested Rework because it gave Mass Rez a 1 second cast time, and in my own words:

I supported their suggestion because the 1 second cast time brings COUNTERPLAY in, which has been my biggest gripe with Mass Rez since the start.

My reply to it is the sixth reply down, I’m well aware.


Mass rezz was a blight on the game. Give it up.

Oh I would love a 1 second cast time added to the old rez. I didn’t know you were on board for the True Mercy Rework proposed by 40+ mercy mains.

:nail_care: Why didnt you just say that from the beginning, now we are friends :heavy_heart_exclamation:

To my knowledge, none of the aforementioned players have acknowledged the counterplay inherent to Resurrect:

…And simultaneously dismissed that counterplay because it does not fit into their arbitrary and self-contradicting definition of what “counterplay” is:

If they have, then yes, they are being dishonest. Dropping a series big names doesn’t change that.

So tell me then:

If the Zarya on Team 1 used Graviton Surge and hits the entirety of Team 2, but Team 2’s Zenyatta uses Transcendence and all of Team 1 survives, did Zenyatta counter Graviton Surge?

If the Sombra on Team 1 used EMP but didn’t catch Team 2’s Lucio in it, so he uses Sound Barrier, protecting his team for the entire duration of the EMP despite the Hack effect, did Lucio counter EMP?

How about the reciprocal of that, where Team 1’s Lucio uses Sound Barrier, but Team 2’s Sombra uses EMP to destroy the shields? Did Sombra counter Sound Barrier?

What if Team 1’s Reinhardt 'shattered five players, but Team 2’s Zenyatta used Transcendence in response and protects his team for the duration of the stun? Did Zenyatta counter Earthshatter?

A consistent person says “yes” to all of these, or they say “no” to all of these.

If you say “yes,” then you are following this definition of “counterplay”:

In which case, you must acknowledge that killing Mercy prior to the activation of mass-Resurrect, or killing her team after the activation of mass-Resurrect, is counterplay.

If you say “no”, or if you flip back and forth on your answers for those different scenarios, then you are admitting that your definition of “counterplay” renders it an arbitrary and pointless entity that isn’t worth addressing, much less using as an argument.

No, it implies that your stated position depends upon multiple inconsistencies or double standards that I believe you are too sharp to overlook.

Then you must acknowledge that using an EMP against Sound Barrier isn’t counterplay, because the cast of Sound Barrier completed.

Either reversing the effects of an ability/ultimate is counterplay, or it isn’t.

Don’t enter a debate to try to change someone’s opinion if you are not willing to change your own.


I do miss having another defensive ult

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I agree with your post but there was one inconsistency with Mercy that did ultimately shrink her ability to be countered. Invulnerability made it so she couldn’t be killed and a lot of the counters such as killing her, and all that was negated because she couldn’t be killed. Yes we have Wrecking Ball and we have Sombra but it wasn’t enough. Now day 1 mercy with Mass Rez was fine because she was counterable and could be killed and a lot of the characters could deal with her.


SB has counterplay in it’s cast time allowing it to be stunned/CC’d/killed/whatever, but I also consider EMP counterplay because you can immediately nullify the effects of his ultimate. You can’t press a button to immediately nullify the effects of Mass Rez, even if you use something like High Noon or Deathblossom all of that can still be avoided by their OWN counterplay.

Moreso…why SHOULD the enemy team have to wipe Mercy’s team and then REWIPE her entire team after she has rezzed them? Why is that a fair mechanic? Especially when the Rez is on the most mobile and slippery hero in the game. I don’t consider that a healthy gameplay mechanic, nor do I think using ults to wipe 5 people and then having to use more ults to re-wipe them 3 seconds later is considered “counterplay”.

This is why I brought up Zen and Lucio ult as being proactive. They are simply means of preventing death, or at least making you less likely to die, and they aren’t fullproof. They can be bursted through, focus fired through, EMP’d or anti’d or whatever. They feel fair. Mass rez was not fair. It was reactive and there was no way of stopping it, your only hope was to re-wipe everyone who was just revived. And considering you have most likely just spent a lot of cooldowns/ults on securing said kills and might even be relatively low health if the fight has just ended, an entire team coming back at full HP to re-fight you straight away usually ended with you getting smashed.

The principle of Mass Rez wasn’t fair or healthy for the game, and that’s my opinion. But apparently the Devs were of the same opinion because they said such and removed it, and I am glad they did. It didn’t feel fair for me as the Mercy using it either, and I know it didn’t feel fair at all for the enemy. It felt dirty and cheap to use. It was dirty and cheap by design.

I was simply explaining why Mercy was reworked and why the Devs have stated they aren’t bringing back mass rez and haven’t for 3 years. There’s no need to convince people of something that’s been changed for good and has been explained by the Devs countless times. I don’t need people to believe me, I know how Mercy works and I know why she was reworked and I support the Devs’ reasoning behind it. I’ve supported the general idea and concept of the rework since it first hit PTR and will continue to do so, I’m very glad they replaced Mass Rez with a more engaging and skillful ultimate and have overall improved Mercy’s kit. All I want now is some boosts to her healing output and maybe to make Valk shorter and more bursty, but I wouldn’t mind if they kept it the way it is, and Mercy would be perfect :smiley:

I simply bring up the lack of counterplay when I see all of these posts from Mercy mains who say “Bring back Mass Rez it was fine and balanced and had fine counterplay” “Bring back Mass Rez and just add LoS and it will have no more hide and rez” because it’s clear they lack an understanding of the ultimate or the game as a whole. But I mean, the Mercy players on here also said Mercy would be underpowered when she was first reworked since Mass Rez was gone and she “would be trash without it”, and then after every nerf she was “dead”, and many have only asked for mass rez back for three years, disregarding anything else. At this point it feels like they didn’t love Mercy, they loved Mass Rez.

I want Mercy to be fun, balanced, and impactful, regardless of if Rez is in her kit. It feels like many Mercy mains on here want her to have Mass Rez, regardless of if she’s balanced or fun or impactful. It’s clear that many of them only loved the shiny Q press, not the actual hero. And that they are willing to overlook all of the issues it had in order to try to get it back. The tactics have changed over the past three years:

  • “Bring Back Mass Rez Valk is OP”
    which then became
    “Bring Back Mass Rez Valk is bad and boring”
  • “Mercy will always be OP with E rez, we need it as her ult”
    is now
    “E rez is horrible and useless and Mercy sucks, we need it as her ult!”
    Even though E rez hasn’t changed

Or “Mass Rez will counter GOATS” has now become “Mass Rez will cause more diversity due to defensive ults!”

The arguments keep changing, it’s just like a desperation to bring back a singular mechanic, with whatever justification is necessary.

I just can’t imagine how much more productive it would be to focus that same amount of energy into asking for realistic changes like

  • Make Valk shorter and heal more
  • Have Valk main beam heal more than chains to bring back target prioritization
  • Increase GA speed in Valk again to compensate for reduce Duration
  • Give Valk better graphical visuals to better reflect the ultimate’s power (brighter, thicker, more powerful beams)

People refuse to even try to work with Valk even though the Devs have said it’s here to stay for good, and Jeff also said he believes it’s the best direction for Mercy (I agree) and that they will continue to iterate upon it accordingly and as needed, but are keeping it regardless.

Maybe when OW2 comes out and they add some forms of instant or mass rez into the PvE talents the Mercy players who missed the ult, and nothing else, can have fun there.


I personally don’t think giving Mercy invulnerability on Resurrect was the correct choice, simply because Mercy needed a power shift from Resurrect to the rest of her kit in the first place. Yes, you are correct, that some of the counterplay that came with Resurrect was removed when that patch went live. There was still ample counterplay to it though.


Luckily we are not in OWL, so we don’t care about damage boost. For damage boost you would rather have Zenyatta. Since he can make use of his own damage boost - something Mercy never going to have.

No you wouldn’t. Zenyatta can’t directly amplify the impact of carry DPS like Widow/Mcree/Hanzo/Solider/Genji in the way Mercy can. Zen is also 1000x more fragile than Mercy, doesn’t have his own self peel like her, and doesn’t have as strong as healing as her to pocket said DPS against dives.

Just stop, please.


Don’t need to, since Zenyatta amplifies impact of all DPS, and himself.

We refuse to be merely a servant to DPS. So, no stopping to this.

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Ah yes the old compare mercy to other supports. And again I ask, which basic ability countered mass Rez? Because every single other ult can be countered with basic abilities in overwatch history except mas Rez.

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Which by itself is really stupid thing. Ults shouldn’t be counterable with press of a button on regular ability.