"Mercy Players Caused The Rework!" | 10 Reasons Why That's WRONG ❤


#129

See, here’s the thing. You say I never addressed that, then the next thing you quote from me is exactly that. Me addressing it.

Also, what fact? That the vocal minority want to be vocal and make multiple threads all saying the same thing they could have said as a reply in an already made thread. What would you like me to address about this fact that I haven’t already said?

Titanium also does a wonderful job of creating fallacies in many of those responses, with obscured facts that reference them self. Again, you really need to find a different manifesto.

I’ve been up and down with most of their talking points. You can read the discussions yourself. How about instead of depending on somebody else’s poor copy paste arguments that have been proven wrong, try having an genuine discussion with somebody. I use you in the general sense here, for the record.

You sure we’re talking about the same person?

Probably because they’re a ban baiter. Even you are putting them on a pedestal right now. If you disagree with them, they will riddle you with fallacies and the large following of mercy mains they have mass false flag anyone with a differing opinion. Honestly, those threads are echo chambers.

This is actually just circular logic.

  1. Person won’t listen to a direct reply
  2. Make thread that replies to their talking points indirectly
  3. People still don’t listen and more think it’s ridiculous
  4. But because the thread had to be made means that original person wasn’t listening to begin with.
  5. Because the person wasn’t listening, the thread had to be made

repeat.

Straightforward logic would be along the lines of, if this person is genuinely trying to have a discussion, continue replying to them directly in that thread. If the person seems like a troll, don’t bother with them.

Or recognize

About this, actually. Has anyone actually said who is legitimately doing it? The familiar suspects keep saying trolls report the thread and it gets closed. But which trolls and why? With the mega thread, there is a lot less Mercy talking points that have been discussed to death a million times clogging up the front page and the forums in general. Meanwhile, I remember vividly how much certain people wanted the mercy mega thread gone so they could be heard again as they thought the mega thread was a void that gets ignored… which, it probably was but that’s besides the point.

If that’s truly the case, my apologizes. However,

tells a very different story.

No, this is you doing some of the following:

See. I pointed out a flaw in your logic, how you’ve created an us vs them mindset to justify spamming the forums with threads like this and titanium’s. You immediately attack one sentence in that entire paragraph where I fully admit i pointed this out, and then you completely ignored the rest of that paragraph. Even going on to say I didn’t address the points that very same paragraph addressed.

You fooled me.

You sure?

I completely agree.

If you choose to ignore it, thats on you. It’s no wonder you think people aren’t listening to your replies so you need to make new threads indirectly replying to those very same people and get validation from likeminded people who agree with you. You just completely ignore them to begin with. You are actually projecting right now.

Just so you can’t say I didn’t address this.

How about instead of depending on somebody else’s poor copy paste arguments that have been proven wrong, try having an genuine discussion with somebody.


#130

The majority never asked for a re-work, yes there was an SR exploit… there will always be an exploit when rank is given based on stats. People tend to find out which stat is most important and inflate that stat to gain more rank. They chose to re-work a entire character instead of changing the rank system, they changed the rank system after the train wreck re-work was released.

People didn’t ask for a re-work… I feel like that is the part you fail to see. A good portion of the community warned them that their re-work was going to break the game… they didn’t do any internal testing to see what their re-work was going to do to the game as a whole. That’s painfully obvious, as obvious as the unstoppable Bastion update they pushed to live.


#131

I never said they did. However, the majority did want something done about mass res. The rework was the result of that.

Wait did they really? I don’t remember that. I just remember them getting rid of personal performance based sr in diamond and above so things like that didn’t happen again.

If you do want to rally for a rework of the ranking system, I’m right there with you. Competitive is a mess.

No i have made it abundantly clear that people wanted something done with mass res, not that people wanted a rework. You can continue beating on this strawman but the fact remains.

Edit: In fact, I’ve even gone into detail about my position in this very thread.

I even liked the exact same comment you did

So not sure why you felt the need to reply to me with a strawman.


#132

Wait… What about Titanium’s post you’ve included is a “fallacy?” If we look into the context, it sounds like they were dispelling your own fallacies with Mercy.

While some of these are true (for example best healing average). A lot of your other points are simply incorrect:

“An ultimate that makes everything she’s the best at better.”

Have you ever tried to res while in valkyrie? It’s certainly not better. It’s worse…

Guardian Angel is also situational. If you have no team mates to GA to, would you say that she still has the “best utility and escape?” I certainly wouldn’t. Moira on the other hand can use her Fade at any time, the moment it’s cool-down resets. I would argue that that has a lot more utility, as it’s not dependent on team mates in order to function.

Wait… Do you know how the devs feel? Do you have documented proof of them making a statement that they actually “worry about more backlash from mercy mains?” What makes you believe that this “Mass res movement” only exists in the forums? Have you checked every part of the internet to make such a claim? What makes Titanium a “manifesto?” Have you not seen the thousands of posts people have made in the 10+ Mercy megathreads? A lot of what they mention with mercy references ideas from other people as well, so how would that qualify them as being a “manifesto?” Otherwise, your post is merely subjective claims, are they not?

I mean, if we’re going to talk about fallacies and self-referenced obscure facts, It would probably be a good idea to make sure that you’re not making subjective opinions as if they are fact either, first and foremost. :blush:


~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
xavvypls
:blue_heart:


#133

Just wanted to point out I can’t relate with this:


#134

Did you not bother to read the 3 posts I linked where i had discussions with them? albeit, in other peoples threads. No of course you didn’t.

Though, if you want me to comment on their newest thread specifically, right away their first argument is opinion.

Even as an opinion it doesn’t hold much ground as now Mercy still has her “overpowered” resurrect, yet she’s not a must pick anymore. You can already argue that resurrection as it has been is fine.

Their hole write up about resurrect is an argument based on personal opinion.

Their first actual source on the matter:

They use a false attribution fallacy. What Titanium quoted specifically is out of context. Had they left in the context:

“We tried to move Resurrection to a secondary ability, and the ability, right now, in current Overwatch, isn’t playing out as a secondary ability; it’s playing out like another ultimate ability in combination with valkery which is extremely powerful. So mercy needs to be toned down.

My favorite part is next:

I know there are a lot of Mercy mains. Mercy is by far the most played hero in the game, um, and the community is absolutely vocal. We know how much you love this hero. If we tone her down too much, we will bring her back.

Mercy was still clearly overpowered after that patch, and was still a must pick:

but of course, you cant please the unpleasable. Mercy was still in a great spot and yet their was even more backlash from Mercy mains.

Should I continue?

Comparative to mass res, yeah it’s not as good. I’m glad you took that quote out of context specifically to try and compare it to something it wans’t intended to be compared to. With that being said, it does make everything she’s the best at… or at least was the best at, at the time, even better.

  • Her regen was unstoppable - better.
  • Chain healing increases her already the best at the time healing average - even better.
  • Aoe damage boost - better.
  • Guardian Angel’s range is extended. - better.
  • Mercy’s healing beam is extended. - better.
  • Her overall move speed increases. - better.

For one, escape’s are not utility, so no I wouldn’t consider GA best utility. Utility is something that’s beneficial to the team. With that out of the way, I would say that an ability that brings you 30m+bunny hop is better than one that brings you 15m. I would say an ability that takes you multi-directional is better than one that doesn’t. I would say an ability that guarantee’s you be placed in a 2 v 1 situation is better. I would say an ability on 1.5 seconds is better than ability on 6 seconds.

If you consider an ability that depends on your team, bad, in a team based fps? I’m sorry, but I just don’t share that opinion. The only perceivable way this is a downside, is if your teams bad, in which case you were never going to win anyway. You were severely out of position, in which case you should be punished, as every other hero can be, including flankers. Even one of tracers blink charges is on a 3 second cool down. Or your team’s been wiped and your the last one alive which happened to be the go to strategy playing around Mercy because her mobility was so ridiculous that it was better to kill off her team than play cat and mouse with her.

And before you even try and make a gotchu argument out of this by taking these quotes out of context. I’m actually glad she has that mobility, it’s her means of survival and she needs it. I am actually tired of people trying to downplay it though.

I know there are a lot of Mercy mains. Mercy is by far the most played hero in the game, um, and the community is absolutely vocal. We know how much you love this hero. If we tone her down too much, we will bring her back.

Seems they already know their will be a Vocal community who loves this hero So much so they need to reassure they’re Keeping an eye on her and will bring her back.

Funny enough a few of these are talking points that were said in multiple dev updates either in video or on the forums, and even then it was used as fodder against the devs.

I can tell you right now reddit seemingly has a much larger overwatch community than people who participate in these forums. Mostly because they know these forums are an echo chamber. The popular opinion is pretty clear there, on r/overwatch and r/competitive overwatch, mercy is in a better spot now than she was with mass res. People just want to see her balanced for the most part.

This thread was posted like 10 days ago. I actually just googled mass res reddit.

You actually just took a play from their book and made a thread to reply to a person so you could gain more visibility in a reply to said person from like minded people.

Even this person caught it. Then you go on to defend Titanium’s thread while it’s riddled with fallacies and inaccuracies, but you don’t care to actually pay attention to those because they agree with your viewpoint for the most part.

Perhaps there was some slight hyperbole initially, but it’s actually scary how it becomes more apparent as this thread went on.

See, the difference here is I never actually once stated it was fact, or even presented it as such. What I did say:

In response to somebody who’s defending your use of titanium’s methods, with the defense that it works when titanium does it, which, it really doesn’t even then.

God this is pretentious.

That’s fair. I agreed with this part rather than the whole.

My understanding of why they did it comes from

I linked your comment in response to somebody else. I’m sorry if you thought I was saying that part to you directly.


Why I Have Yet to Not Despise Mercy's Current State
Why I Have Yet to Not Despise Mercy's Current State
Why I Have Yet to Not Despise Mercy's Current State
"Hide and rez wasn't a thing"
#135

That’s because they gave her a huge nerf to her base kit… Before that, all the nerfs did absolutely nerfing because only 2 of them were to Resurrect on E. (Excluding the iteration of Resurrect in Valkyrie)


#136

You could say they simply balanced her around her new form of utility that she previously didn’t have. As well she still has her increased survivability. They gave her the potential to be more than just a heal bot in exchange for nerfing her healing that she was by far the best at. Even then, they didn’t nerf the core of her healing as it’s still the most consistent single target healing in the game. She’s still the go to hero for pharmercy comps and sniper comps, which are still very much viable.

They basicaly got rid of mass res and put mercy in a better spot than she previously was, while making sure she maintained her original niche that she had before the rework.

The one downside is mass res was clearly more flashy than valk.


#137

You think the game is in a healthy spot?
How in any way did Valk make things better for ANYONE?
In ANY iteration. From Valk1.0 to what we have now, the amount of rage this ult has caused is the exact OPPOSITE of health.


#138

How does that make sense when Valkyrie just makes her a better heal bot?

Consistently sh*t. (Sorry I had to…) Personally, I think consistency is not relevant if the heals are bad. E.g: 40heals per second but they are consistent… Doesn’t make it good.

Pharmercy on PC is a joke. As for sniper meta, think dive will be coming back because of Hammond. Then there’s GOATs which Mercy is absolutely horrible in.

In terms of balance, Mercy was in a good spot before her rework. In terms of power, yes, reworked Mercy put her in a better place but most of us don’t want a ridiculously powerful hero.

Also the fact that Valkyrie has everything but the trade off being, it isn’t efficient at anything except flight.


#139

I like that the lists literally have the evidence with them, and yet you still call it fake.


#140

Evidence that is 100% anecdotal and generalizes millions of players?


#141

You and I both know you’re not healing anybody through most damage with valk. Which is why it’s best used offensively. You and me have had this discussion before.

She still heals more than Ana on average? How is that bad? because it’s not 14-17k per game like it used to be. I guess I can see how you would find that bad, when you’re so used to something being too good.

People still like to run Zen in diamond and above. Consistent healing isn’t something you should be trying to downplay.

Pharmercy, one of the best strats that’s been viable every meta ever. Is a joke. You’re starting to let your bais talk now. Stop it or this conversation is over. I’m not doing this again with you.

Arguable. Sr exploit aside perhaps. Even then she was still rather weak.

There’s a difference between ridiculously powered, which is basically Mercy for the last year… And having the power adjusted in her kit.

Isn’t efficient at anything? Your bias is talking again. You like mass res, it felt more impactful. I already know your opinion on this. That doesn’t mean Valk is bad, especially when you refuse to adapt to it’s applications.


#142

I mean, dev comments physically aren’t anectodal. Open threads literally labled “Mercy players are a cult” isn’t anectodal. Countering someone saying “I saw they did” with “I saw they didn’t” is an anectode against an anectdote, which shows the hypocracy of it. People knew Mercy for Rez, not for consistent healing and mobility. People do say Res was OP, when the stats show it wasn’t. Where exactly are you seeing this anectodal evidence?


#143

I love how this thread now has more exposure than the one it’s replying to.


#144

Temporarily become a BTEC Supercharger. I am aware.

60HP was never too good… She was fine for quite a while with it. (Pre-rework)

I find it hard to believe that Zen is picked because of his heals.

I play on console and I’m bashing a strategy that is the go to on console. Hardly biased. It’s just that I’ve played on PC (3300+) and PharMercy just doesn’t work against anyone if the enemy team has atleast one hitscan.

True but small tweaks here and there could’ve fixed that. It wouldn’t take 14 consecutive nerfs.

Sorry, should’ve specified. It isn’t efficient in the sense that it doesn’t do much to impact the fight.

The only real thing impacting the fight in a noticeable way is AoE heals and extended beams.

Cool.

Turn yourself into a temporarily Supercharger? Nah, I just go Orisa for that.


#145

“People knew Mercy for rez” That is anectotal and impossible to actually prove.

“People do say rez was OP” Sure people do, but does everyone?

Unless you survey every active OW on the state of mercy and give me stats everything is anecdotal. That’s how logic based arguments work.


#146

Didn’t know supercharger could switch to heal in extended team fights, or could move around lol. This is the exact same argument titanium makes and i’ve already been up and down with that.

Personally I agree, pre rework of course. Once they nerfed ana’s bio-nade, Mercy and Ana were relatively balanced healing wise around each other. 60hp, x 5 on the other hand. It also gave way to make winston actually useless against anybody mercy was pocketing. It still gives way to negate any damage Moira’s doing to somebody with grasp. Both of which were far from meta or just completely didn’t exist at the time, so it was never a noticeable issue.

No, he most certainly isn’t picked solely because of his heals, however, his heals are good enough that it’s worth trading the healing he does lack for the damage you do gain from having him on your team.

You mean to say pharmercy doesn’t work when people actually pick to counter it? The horror lol. For real though, Pharmercy has been a viable comp every single meta. Of course not the most dominant, but one that does work when played optimally. Mostly map specific in the pro scene.

Not sure why you’re fixated on how many nerfs or buffs it takes. Play a moba for a month and you’ll almost double that. I agree mass res mercy could have been worked around to give it counter play and such, but at the time Overwatch was a very different game.

Take out your pistol and take out that widow nobodies been paying attention too. It’s actually possible now.

Last I checked, Orisa doesn’t also provide healing, damage boost without ult, and resurrect on 30 seconds, but I mean hey, if you can pull it off go for it.


#147

Actually… No it isn’t. :blush:

3:18 - 3:42


~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
xavvypls
:blue_heart:


#148

I’m sorry, when you say play Valkyrie offensively, the first time I’m going to assume is that you’d need to use your damage beams way more than your healing beams.

I only ever pick him for that juicy discord.

You’re acting as if the idea of countering heroes is unnatural. Fortunately, people will do anything to win.

Overwatch getting more heroes and maps does not make it a different game. It’s always going to be a FPMOBA.

And risk losing value from damage boost and heals? Also, something like DPSing as Mercy is quite risky since it isn’t guaranteed to give you value out of your ultimate. It’s also a easy way to throw a fight.

Atleast she doesn’t get turned into her ultimate… I’d much rather prefer 50% dmg boost whilst playing my kit as normal over Valkyrie.