"Mercy is fine fun is subjective play someone else"

Fun was subjective in both cases, it just so happens that old rez was not subjectively fun for almost the entire overwatch community, and valkyrie Mercy is subjectively much more fun for most

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What is “Fun” & “Unfun” are certainly subjective.

I would see the two ultimates differently though. I believe it happens to be that subjectively, Mass Rez was seen as “unfun to play against” mostly by the top 1% of players, OWtubers/Twitch streamers and the minority of the community, while Valkyrie has subjectively been seen as not only a huge problem for most of the community, especially during the Mercy meta where she was actually a mustpick and had an almost perfect winrate, but also when it caused so many problems that it ultimately resulted in both her being gutted with 12+ sledgehammer nerfs, and the majority of the community subjectively seeing her being little more than a glorified spectator mode, with “a bit more healing”. But of course, to each their own. :blush:


~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
xavvypls
:blue_heart:

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I don’t think anyone found it fun to play against a Mercy who would hide at any rank, and I don’t think most people playing Mercy even liked it to hide. Most of the community will not like playing Mercy no matter what we do to her, that is just the way things are. Yea, she was busted for a while, but it’s fixed now and she is pretty close to balanced. I know of a lot of people who like valkyrie; her ult isn’t a spectator mode unless you make it a spectator mode. Telling by your name I suppose to prefer to revert her rather than another rework? I’d much rather see a stackable pulse-bomb like ult than a revert.

Well allow me to ask then… What Ultimate do you find fun to play against?


~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
xavvypls
:blue_heart:

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It’s not the ultimate itself that was not fun to play against, it was hiding Mercys which, whether you did it or not, was a major issue and was unfun to play against.

As for what ults are fun to play against I’d say many are as long as they aren’t op like grav or nano drag etc.

Most Mercy mains didn’t hide, the good Mercy players at least. Hiding and Rezzing was actually a pretty bad strategy that in most cases, got you killed more than it helped. Speaking from my own experiences though.

Yup, but that can also be summed up for pretty much any hero, to be honest.

That’s great! I know a lot of people who hate Valkyrie, and consider it a spectator mode no matter how good or bad they use it. I too strongly dislike current Valkyrie, and find it extremely boring. I think it can use some improvements. But everyone is entitled to their opinions. :blush:

Actually, I would much prefer a revert of Mass Rez plus tweaks, which would be considered more of a rework than just a revert. I think it could have been given counterplay, rather than have something like an instant rez and invincibility. I think they had something really great there, and kind of threw it away. But those are just my thoughts. I haven’t heard a stackable pulse bomb like idea for Mercy’s ult, but that sounds interesting. How would that work exactly?

I see your point, but I’m not sure I agree. I think it was used as a scapegoat to force a rework no one asked for. And I say this mainly due to there being no statistical evidence that this was happening in any major way, outside of edited Youtube videos and a few twitch streams. I would say it’s more of the SR exploit that caused a resurgence of Mercy players to get away with bad rez strategies. I think if things like Line of Sight were used (as is now). Hide and Rez wouldn’t exist to any problematic degree.

Well, can you provide an example? I don’t think any ultimates are “fun” to play against personally, so some type of example of what one would see as fun to play against would be most helpful. :blush:


~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
xavvypls
:blue_heart:

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I think hiding was an issue for when people would play Mercy, clearly it was if my team would always tell me to hide whenever I got it, and I’m sure the majority of Mercys listened. Even good Mercys would hide, many times hiding is the most optimal strategy, take Vale or the other streamers/top 1% you pointed out.

While ults may seem unfun with a quick glance because they make it harder for your team, I personally find it fun since it makes the game more challenging. Example are mei’s ult or really any AOE ult like minefield. Also reaper ult, d.va bomb, hog ult, soldier/cree ult.

As for your forum suggestion, while it isn’t an exact revert, it’s pretty close and doesn’t solve the core issue. Mercys would still hide until they need it to be used (say, from a grav wipe). One rework idea which I like is to give her a quick-charging, stackable ult (up to 5). You could say the same thing I just said, that it doesn’t solve the core issue of hiding, but it does, in fact. Stacking it up 4 to 5 times would rarely occur in the first place since you’re going to want to use your 1 or 2 rezzes to stop staggers or as tempo rezzes. Also, it would require a LOT of healing to stack it 4 or 5 times. That’s the general idea, details such as LoS, cast time, etc. are left out.

Well my point is that it wasn’t exactly as common as people say it was. And there isn’t any sources that show just how “problematic” it was, since the best idea we have of this even happening is clips from a few youtubers and twitch streamers. I personally never was told to hide as Mercy in order to rez, and never needed to. I also have footage that shows me being completely within the enemies line of sight for a few seconds and the enemy still hadn’t killed me, and thus, were punished with a 4 man rez. Those types of scenarios I believe are perfectly fair game. As the enemy had an opportunity to kill me as Mercy, in plain sight, and never did.

A lot of pros argue that Mass Rez is actually quite weak compared to other ults. Despite the rumors, and since all we have to go by are clips and twitch streams with regards to how the ability actually played out, this video shows pretty much how most Mass Rezzes actually played out in most games. Showing clips from both normal ladder and pro play, and the fact that Mercy was actually niche and at best a D-tier hero (which I can prove with a stats if you want), I do have a hard time trying to see how one would see it as the most optimal.

Playing Mercy since the first iteration of Mass Rez, I can vouch that getting anything above a tempo-res was extremely difficult. Most of the time you popped 2 or 3 man rezzes, and the rest of the time you’re coming back from spawn because you’re constantly killed either before your rez, or after when the enemy had the common sense to not blow all of their ults at once (a problem which now exists constantly in the game, since it’s removal). In fact, the reality is that Mass Rez was so weak, that they had to buff Mercy with invincibility just to pull it off more successfully.

Wouldn’t that include Mercy’s Mass Rez as well? It prevents winning by ult spamming through a choke, something this game currently has a huge problem with today, along with the power creep issues. I don’t see why Mass Rez is the sole exception to the rule.

Hiding from a grav wipe, as in… Taking cover? I see no problem with that. I don’t think you should be jumping into a grav to use an ultimate, unless you’re D.va with a defense matrix. In that instance, I don’t see that as something to worry about.

Regarding hide and res being a core issue still existing with the rework, I disagree. I’m not sure if you looked at the link I provided, but line of sight in order to rez directly prevents the need to hide in the first place - since you can’t rez through walls or other obstacles. So “hiding and ressing” in the traditional sense, would not be possible from the get go. She would be more than vulnerable in attempting to go for a rez. She still has a slow, which further prevents her from just recklessly flying in from nowhere and getting away with a full team revive, and the cast time prevents it from being instant, allowing for more than enough opportunities for counterplay.

At the same time, the timings, while they can be adjusted, combined with LOS and damage reduction instead of invincibility and the fact that she now expires her ultimate if she dies beforehand, means that there is absolutely no reason to hide unless it’s to lose value of playing the hero. Valk flight as an E-move, and the ability to cancel the rez at the cost of expiring the souls are another set of measures to promote more bold plays. Quite frankly, a Mercy who still tries to hide with the suggested rework is akin to a Mercy who is only using her to hold M1. They are getting no added value out of it.

Regarding a stackable ult, I’m not sure what you are referring to by “it”. If you mean ressurect charges, then I wouldn’t mind that idea either. It is also one of the suggestions I’ve had in my rework proposal, but instead of being solely through healing, it is affected by how many rezzes she can pull off. In other words, the more Mercy saved up, the longer it took for her to rez with a higher cast time. Adding value to big rezzes in some instances and tempo rezzes in others.


~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
xavvypls
:blue_heart:

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I know of no valid data that backs a claim that either side is a majority

That made me chuckle.

Also, 100% agree with you

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There is no claims of such data. Hence, the words “I would see”, “subjectively”, and “I believe”

Context is very important. :blush:


~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
xavvypls
:blue_heart:

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I can say without blushing that the statement I replied to indicated that a majority of folks felt a certain way, and I know of no valid evidence to back the claim of a majority in this regard

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And with that, an opinion, once again, attempting to be factual. Blown into the wind because evidence has once again, prevailed against their previous claims of falsehoods. In short, a warm gust. :blush:

Out of curiosity, what types of changes would you be interested in seeing with her?


~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
xavvypls
:blue_heart:

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The text Mega quoted (quoted again above) is not a subjective statement. You are stating that the majority of the community had a specific opinion.

You stated that the majority of the community felt a certain way, not that you felt that a majority of the community felt a certain way.

You’re making claims regarding other people’s feelings and also claiming that a large proportion of people felt one way or another – surely you can see the problem with this?

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And there in lies the issue. 2/3rd of the Mercy player base want her reworked/changed/buffed ect. Taking the best of Mercy 1.0 and the Best of Mercy 2.0 would definitely help find a common ground that can be both Enjoyable, Viable and Impactful. Mercy 1.0 was far from awful, Mercy 2.0 was far from Tragic but Mercy 3.0 could either A. Solve this games issues with her troublesome kit and impact or B. it’ll be moth meta again which as we all know is and was the worst Meta to ever have existed to come from a rework.

Im not saying Mercy is awful, or is as trash tier as some would like to say but Valkyrie is by far the worst thing to come to this character it is absolutely abhorrent to Mercy. Rez is a great ability but it shouldn’t be apart of her base kit, its powerful and balancing around it is making the rest of Mercy lack, it should remain intact within her ultimate not as the PRIME thing for her ultimate but in her ultimate as an evolved Ability. Mercy 2.0 has been clashing with her ever since. Especially since she’s supposed to be one of the most mobile characters ever and yet when it comes to rez, slowing her down 75%? That’s completely contradictory to her character.

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You are mistaken. The sentence prefaces with “has subjectively been seen.”

Hence, it is a subjective statement.

Once again, this is why context is important. :blush:


~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
xavvypls
:blue_heart:

Well stated, Grey…thank you

Just because a hero is not used among the upper echelon of players does not mean they are any less ‘fun’. Lucio is considered -among high skill players- to be quite fun, but he was impossible to run in OWL for a whole season because Mercy was so overtuned.

Mercy is functioning as intended - an introductory level healer. You don’t have to be mechanically inclined to be good at her. Therefore, considering very high tier players are always mechanically inclined, they simply ought to -and do- get more value out of a more difficult-to-play hero.

Whether she is fun or not still is competently subjective, whether you like to hear that or not.

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The text you quoted is, unfortunately, not helping your claim. The part you quoted, again, states that other people felt a way.

Again, it states that: “Valkyrie has been subjectively seen as not only a huge problem for most of the community”

That is a claim to other people’s feelings and the proportion of which hold them, and as Mega said, you’re not providing any evidence of it. You did not state that you, subjectively, felt that many others felt, subjectively, in that regard towards Valk.

At the very start of your post, where you said: “I believe it happens to be that subjectively, Mass Rez was seen as unfun to play against” – that is a proper subjective statement.

The concept of a majority is simply not a subjective one, even if one chooses in a statement to modify it with the adjective “subjective”