Stading ovation!! 
But, I admit I have not read everything, it was enough to read remembering how the 50 hps nerf was a colossal mistake
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For that to matter whatsoever, we’d have to return to the gamestate in which that was true. Much has changed since then. Accounting for Ana, Brig, Moira, Lucio changes, Brig chances, increased Rein mobility, shield nerfs, and so forth, would still only be scratching the surface. Let’s not take the whole “The gladius was good enough for the Romans, so it should be good enough for you!” approach here.
You can when the —or, to a large degree, any— component’s power varies with the kit surrounding it. Just because one thing’s nominal output rate didn’t change doesn’t mean its in-practice totals will not. Genji dominated ranked matches during the early dive era, even after his every nerf. How’s he doing now, even with that Secondary Fire buff since then?
That’s not to say that “CD Rez” wasn’t a problem, but neither can the HPS going unchanged necessarily indicate that it wasn’t part and parcel of that same problem. “CD Rez”, at least, required team play and control of space, whereas the much greater range on her healing beam gives it that much more leniency.
But consider what a CD Rez is. It’s the ability to forgo healing on, ideally high-max-HP, target and thereby equate to the pressure of two healers, while potentially scooping up a Roadhog Rez every 25 (later 30) seconds for 24 (20) HPS. It’s still, ultimately, healing pressure and health restored, just in far chunkier bursts. It is… in effect… healing throughput. It offers the very same pressure, extension opportunities, and increase to total health recovery. Rez and Caduceus Staff were just two sides of the same coin.
On topic:
I think Mercy could use a healing throughput buff, but only a slight one, and I’d much rather whatever buff she get lean into her utility (damage boost and mobility, and thereby flexibility and survivability) than raw output. Utility adds to skill ceilings and, frankly, enjoyment. The other at best adds to balance, but Mercy’s not so far behind that it’s worth sacrificing the chance at further enjoyment just to get the most basic or merely “functional” buffs possible.
not at all
the dev statement regarding the 60->50 nerf stated that 60 made Mercy a must-pick, and they didnt want any character to be a must-pick
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They did also say: “Even after this change she will still be able to deliver more healing over the course of a match than any other support hero”
This is currently not true, and hasn’t been true for a very long time.
to be a bit nitpicky here, they said the other healers “[found it] very difficult to compete with her for a spot on a team”
Mercy was not mentioned as a must pick, because that ended in January 2018 when she was given sledgehammer nerfs. She was very strong, but she was not a must pick.
In fact, she fell out of meta right before her healing nerf hit the live servers:
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It’s okay, everyone is allowed to be wrong.
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First, mobility and healing are 2 separate things not one and the same. having mobility doesn’t make you
But actually just means that you can heal targets/jump to targets from larger distances.
Example. Moira and Lucio is a short range Healer, in order for them to heal, they need to stick close to their teammates, and in order for them to heal multiple targets - those multiple targets need to be close together.
Mercy/Zen/Ana on the other hand can heal only one target at a time. But how?
Ana and Zen don’t have mobility, therefor they have to see or have their target in their Los in order to heal them.
Mercy doesn’t need to have anyone in her Los to heal them and she can travel big distances in a short amount of time…Oh wait… isn’t that almost nearly perfect for enabling divers and flankers?
I as mercy can literally follow a Genji on a flank or Ashe or even Reaper (who are way behind enemy lines in order to get good shot opening) and support them (damage or heal) while hiding behind a wall cuz I don’t have to even look at them to heal them while watching the other flank.
Second I can follow Dove tanks wherever they go and help them chase down enemies behind corners whilst damage boosting them to finish them of, and if I get into trouble I can just glide out to safety (something no other support can do and survive or waste their cds like fade or risk their positioning, and unlike them I can damage boost to make dives faster and efficient)
A Winston is not supposed to dive the enemy frontline and survive (that would make him broken and other tanks irrelevant). He has enough resources to dive the backline, attack a , i dunno, Zen, kill him and jump out to safety (that’s how you play him, unlike Rein for example who can’t do what Winston does but has his own thing his best at - same rules work for supports, you don’t play them the same)
This is a strategical game, not a healing numbers competition.
Every single role has a job to do and provides unique advantages. Wanting a support to be able to do everything everywhere equally successful to other supports is broken, unbalanced, and ruins the purpose of overwatches gameplay.
Why bot? You have to choose targets to focus wisely, you can’t pocket whoever you want and except equal results from that. Other than rezz the only thing she can do is pocket (for a strategical reason like I explained before)
What dies this even mean? Strong compared to what? who? Why? If Mercy can do the same thing as Ana equally well as her why even have multiple different supports then?
OK, that is a colossal post. But I had to pick out this chart for a key reason. Mercy is very different from the other supports because her primary skill is decision making. Having 100% uptime to heal anyone AND the ability to dmg boost and rez means sometimes we choose NOT to heal at certain moments. I am being self serving but I would like to think GM and above think this way.
I do agree, she should be top healer, fine. But if healing looks like it’s taken care of (such as Moira / Ana doing their job well with tanks) or a team fight is won, I absolutely will not sit behind the tank waiting to feed a quest for gold medals. I maybe dmg boost a hitscan for long range cheapie kills, or get positioned to pocket an ult-ready scary dps like Genji or Soldier or Reaper for a total demoralizing quad kill. Even in low incoming fire situations, such as team regrouping, I’ll dps from afar to build my own ult and let the other healers take care of the little bits coming in.
Again, I do agree Mercy should be the big healer but I think at higher levels of gameplay, knowing when NOT to heal and let the burst healers take care of things is super valuable. I actually am happy when I tryhard and do NOT get gold healing (which is rare) because that means the other support was busting out mega heals and that left me room to use Mercy’s best skill - STRATEGY. And that strategy does not have a low skill floor.
EDIT: I can be easily criticized for “omg shut up ur gold” but I’ve found far more success using Mercy with better decision making than just parked behind some tank fatties trying to soak up healing gold. As you say, there are main healers for that job, if you want to define main healer as someone who sits on tanks. Mercy’s skill set is far more broad than that, and it doesn’t always get quantified with raw healing output. I would argue that every time I got gold with Mercy, the other Support was just not good.
Mercy having 60/s is a bit lot for dps, and just enough for tanks.
May as well put in the “burst heal” she lacks on her shift into her base kit.
Let she heal critical targets at 70/s w/o changing anything else, problem solved.
I should’ve worded it better. Apologies. When I say:
I mean that in comparison to off-supports. As of now, the two designs for support is either an off-healer or main healer. Besides Mercy (who’s design has the worst of both an off-support and main healer) all the main healer’s output significantly more heals than off-supports. They also have abilities that further enhance their already high heals.
[For example]
- Moira’s Healing Orb
- Baptiste’s Regenerative Burst
- Ana’s Bionade
Now, some off-supports also have abilities that enhance their heals (Lucio’s Amp for example) but they usually already have low base heals.
I’d also like to point out that, statistically, main healers in general output way more heals on average than off-supports. For example, here are some GM stats for heals:
- Moira - 14,779 (MAIN HEALER)
- Baptiste - 13,261 (MAIN HEALER)
- Ana - 12,283 (MAIN HEALER)
- Mercy - 10,928 (???)
- Briggite - 10,289 (OFF-SUPPORT)
- Lucio - 8,456 (OFF-SUPPORT)
- Zen - 7,792 (OFF-SUPPORT)
As you can see, there’s a clear difference between the amount of heals outputted by main healers and off-supports.
Sorry, I don’t know what “core” is. I’m simply going by hero designs and the most common (in my opinion. Didn’t know that there was an alternate definition for a main healer.
In Double Sniper, Mercy isn’t used as a main healer though? She’s picked for her utility; her damage boost. If a support is mainly being picked for utility and not so much for healing, they’re the off-support. That aside, for Double Sniper specifically, I don’t even think a main healer was used. if I’m correct the composition composed of Rein, Zarya, Mercy, Zen, Widow and Hanzo. Zen and Mercy were both picked for their Discord and Damage Boost respectively.
Edit: After doing some more research, I found out that Mercy during Double Sniper still had 60HP. That would mean that she was used as the main healer since she could’ve been picked for her heals or her damage boost; more so her heals for obvious reasons. Sorry for the mistake.
In that team comp, Ana is the main healer but she’s always going to be played as a main healer? Are you saying that the support’s sub-role changes depending on what team comp you’re going? Like LoL for example where someone who’s mainly picked for Support can easily be the ADC if you get the right runes and items?
If that is what you’re saying, I’m kinda disagreeing since all the supports are designed a certain way and can easily be put into two categories. I don’t think, for example, that a Zen can effectively be used as a main healer because, at the end of the day, he just doesn’t heal enough outside of his ultimate.
Again, I don’t believe Lucio was being played as the main support in that scenario. In OG Dive, they were just playing two off-supports because Dive revolved around fast-paced fights and burst damage - both of which are provided by Zen’s Discord and Lucio’s Speed. I’m certain they weren’t picked for their heals; which is what a main healer is best at.
Lucio protecting the Zen in Dive? 
IDK bout that dude.
GG said:
This is referring to her healing statistics in general and it is true. Back then, she was roughly healing the same amount as Ana but less than Moira.
This is also talking about her overall healing statistics but as I’ve said before, it’s just not accurate. Back then, Moira was the one doing the most heals on average. This “competition” that GG refers to had nothing to do with her heals. It was simply CD Resurrect that forced players to always play her in every range.
Now, this part is definitely talking about her healing output. Why? He explicitly mentions that in this sentence and, again, he describes her healing as “raw” and goes on to say “healing power”. How on Earth would that be describing Mercy’s healing statistics and not her healing output per second.
In conclusion, this:
just isn’t a logical assumption.
I mean, look at the entire paragraph:
The whole change was about Mercy’s healing output and how she’s supposedly healing way more than the other support and this is why she is a must pick. I don’t see where “single target heals” fits into all this unless I’m grasping for straws and am just cherry-picking.
Except I haven’t said this at all. Your justification for Moira having significantly higher heals than Mercy is:
All I’m saying is that it’s not difficult. Compared to Mercy, Moira’s healing spray isn’t hard to use and so you can’t use that to try and argue that Mercy shouldn’t be able to heal 60HP/s - even when that iteration of Mercy’s heals weren’t problematic.
[DISCLAIMER: If this is not what you’re talking about, just skip this part or clarify your statement]
I genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to say here. From what I can piece together, are you saying that Moira’s usually don’t heal the same as the potential amount they could’ve healed? (Healing in a vacuum vs healing in real-time) If so, I’ll just point out her healing statistics:
- Moira: 14,803
.
.
. - Mercy: 10,945
Even if she’s going to be losing a ton of potential heals because her heals aren’t a lock-on like Mercy’s shes still already doing 4k more heals than her. Heck, she does over 1k more healing than the next main healer. 
So you don’t even know that Mercy before her rework was severely underpowered? 
Sounds like you’re just discussing a topic you don’t know about. Anyway, since you asked for it I’ll link the statistics right now:
Season 4 HERO TIER LIST (March 2017):
lolhttps://www.overbuff.com/blog/2017-03-07-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-omnic-crisis-averted
Season 5 HERO TIER LIST (August 2017):
lolhttps://www.overbuff.com/blog/2017-08-30-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-and-the-gunslinger-followed
Wow, would you look at that! Season 4 she was F and Season 5, probably because of her invulnerability buff, she made it to D tier. Once again, I don’t see how you can interpret that as anything besides Mercy being underpowered. Just in case you think 2 isn’t enough:
Overwatch Contenders (June 2017):
lolhttps://www.overbuff.com/blog/2017-06-07-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-a-tale-of-two-tournaments
Just a reminder that the rework hit on September 2017…
[Remove the “lols” in the links to view them]
Firstly, I don’t think simply ignoring parts of his statement is the correct thing to do. I think addressing them would be much more helpful for everyone. For example, as you’ve seen before, I’ve used his words to defend Mercy’s role as a main healer but I’ve also argued against his words. In this case, him saying that her healing was what made her overshadow the other supports. Secondly, why would I ignore the developer’s intentions… Unlike the balance changes he makes, that can be subject to failure, his intentions aren’t going to differ over time unless he explicitly says otherwise.
Eh, no. There’s a clear difference between the justification for a change and the intentions behind a change.
That’s not a good thing. 
Where are you going with this exactly? I’ve already said before that you can’t just assume that they changed their mind about what role they want Mercy to fulfil since that’s appealing to ignorance - you’re basing your argument off of something you don’t know. This isn’t a matter of being stubborn and that isn’t a good argument to support a change in stance on Mercy either. Besides, saying they’re stubborn would mean that their current belief on Mercy is not an inherently good one. I’m sorry but there’s nothing wrong with Mercy being a main healer. Unless you can argue otherwise, this is just going to be settled with logic and as of now, that is to use what we’re given.
Read what I wrote carefully. I said they couldn’t have done anymore without absolutely dumpstering her. I’m saying that any more nerfs to Mercy’s Valkyrie or Resurrect would’ve made her trash. Thankfully though, they didn’t have to do this. We already know that she was falling out of the META. Her pickrates were slowly normalising and GOATs was soon commencing. The truth is, Double Sniper is what kept her in the META.
META Change from Snipers to GOATs:
Umm… No? Yes, she has a 15m range for her beam but there is no travel time involved; the heals are most certainly instant. Think of Mercy’s beam as Sym beam. For the distance you’re given, there’s no travel time. If you want an example of a support that does have travel time on her heals, look no further than Moira. Her beam acts sort of like a projectile and has travel time.
That’s more of a QoL change than anything. Also, I think it already exists. Correct me if I’m wrong but this is what a Mercy change in Patch 1.4.1.0.0:
Mercy
Valkyrie
- The extra beams created by Valkyrie now ignore enemy barriers
Developer Comment: This change will make Valkyrie makes Mercy’s beams consistent with how they work outside of the ultimate.
This makes me think the feature already exists since they made a change to Valkyrie’s extra beams in regards to beams. Again, correct me if I’m wrong on this. I haven’t tested it in-game yet.
The first one is just a random buff and really has nothing to do with what Geoff said besides Mercy being a strong single-target healer. It’s also unnecessary and complicates things. Why do you believe they need to bother adding a whole new feature to her beam which has functioned the same since the launch of this game. Just give her a numbers buff rofl. Moving on to the last thing in the sentence, anyone who has actually played Mercy will know that that is annoying. If you intend on switching your heal target, you don’t want your beam to take an extra second to register that. That would be incredibly annoying.
Why not? I don’t intend on balancing around low ranks. Besides, I even gave an exception to Mercy and referred to low ranks; which show her being picked less than Ana. All things considered, pickrates is an even better indicator of balance than primary heals on average.
Hence why I said this:
I mean, I also checked on Overbuff to see where you got your stats from. You could’ve at least done that for me. 
I mentioned GM, Pro, Bronze, Silver, Gold and Platinum statistics in my arguments with you. That aside, I definitely don’t see a problem with balancing around high elo play since balancing around the overall or low rank stats solely is arguably worse. High elo players are good at the game and therefore know which heroes are good or bad. Take Brig for example. She’s a really good hero right now. Both statistically and numerically if we look at her kit. In Bronze, she has one of the lowest pickrates; at 1.81%.
Are you insane? Pickrate is the best indicator of balance. My argument in favour of a buff to Mercy isn’t just grounded in how much heals she currently does on average. I’m also advocating for a buff because she’s slightly underpowered - because of her awful pickrate in low ranks. How can you look at Ana being played more than Mercy in Bronze and go: “sO WhAT?”.
No, he didn’t but this is just logical balancing at this point. Funny how you keep saying that I interpreted GG’s words as gospel when you keep referring back to him. You even tried to use him to suggest that Mercy being picked less than Ana in low ranks is okay.
Nice strawman. I never said she should be the most picked hero in every rank. I’m saying that she shouldn’t bloody have a pickrate behind a hero who has a high skill floor in the lowest ranks in the game. Ana requires a lot of skill and has a considerably high skill floor too. Her being played over Mercy; who doesn’t require too much skill and has a medium skill ceiling is not something desirable or even logical unless one of those heroes are just not good enough to justify them being played. In conclusion, we’re clearly dealing with an underpowered hero. As I’ve said before, you could argue that Ana is overtuned but given that 2 of the main healers are out of commision (Bap is trash and Mercy is neither a main healer or off-support) it seems as though Ana’s state is entirely circumstantial. The only oppressive thing I can think of in her kit is Antinade and even that isn’t too problematic since it has clear restrictions.
Definition: Cherry picking , suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related and similar cases or data that may contradict that position.
Me: mentions all ranks besides Diamond and GM but focuses more on high tier stats because they’re good at the game
You don’t know what cherry-picking is mate. Besides, overall statistics aren’t even good since the low ranks inflate the high rank stats. It’s not a good indicator of balance at all unless a hero is grossly overpowered (Moth Mercy or Launch Brig). We’re not in such a situation though.
No, I’m referring to the hero that’s getting boosted. You mentioned Zen’s Discord which is why I responded. The extra damage from Discord is included on Zen’s stats assuming he dealt the damage with Discord. If it was other heroes, the extra damage will appear on their stats. Same for Mercy. I’m not saying that Mercy’s damage boost records as damage for her. I’m saying that the extra damage she provides certainly gets recorded down as damage and not just “Heroes amplified”.
You brought her up m8. The most I’ve mentioned Moira is when you referred to her or when I cited statistics for all the supports or multiple supports - not just Moira.
Flashback when you suddenly turned the argument into: “Moira is the bigger outlier” as if I even cared but I still bothered to respond to it doubting that claim.
Firstly, she still isn’t the outlier when it comes to healing. Her stats are roughly in line with Bap’s and Ana’s healing averages. Mercy is the only one that’s signifcantly lower than the 3. (GM stats just to clarify) Secondly, you’re so one dimensional. Yeah, I focused a lot on healing statistics but that isn’t my only argument here. Balance doesn’t just revolve around one stat. The main reason I even mentioned it was because of GG’s statements. My argument for a buff has been both about design and balance. Design wise, she’s not being picked for “raw healing” output and balance wise, shes being less than Ana in low ranks.
Yes, which I did too. That doesn’t mean that’s the only thing I mentioned. Once again, for someone saying that I’m taking GG’s words as gospel, you keep getting hung on the part of the argument that involves him.
He literally never said that. Imagine strawmaning a developer’s own words. He said he wants Mercy to be picked for her healing; he wants her to be a main healer. This doesn’t mean he wants her to heal the most in the game. Are you just forgetting that there are 3 more main healers besides her who are also picked for their heals.
The thing you quoted has the reason in it. Just read it.
Isn’t barrel stuffing when you shoot someone upfront and in their face. (I played CoD and this is what I knew as barrel stuff) I have multiple questions. The main one is why are you even getting that close to a Tank…
Not in low ranks. Did you forget that most of them can’t aim or more accurately aim at the air in the majority of situations. Meanwhile, Mercy has a lock-on.
Because even W+M1 in low ranks is unheard of… You’re really overestimating how well these players can function. Compare such a combo, mechanical requirements and zero mobility to a hero who has a lock-on, requires minimal mechanical skill (you literally have to manually swap your staff for your pistol to aim and do damage) and has amazing mobility.
You’re never going to be able to justify Mercy being picked less than Ana in Bronze and any rank for that matter.
This is literally the case for Ana, Mercy and every other hero in the game that isn’t a tank.
I’ve made it very clear that I’m only using his statement to find out his intentions for Mercy. In his entire statement, We had his intentions, justification and solution. His intentions were for Mercy to remain a main healer. His solution was a nerf to Mercy’s heals because this was supposedly causing her to overshadow the other supports. These two are of course clashing but keep in mind that GG thought that the change wouldn’t make her lose her spot as a main healer. With that considered, you can’t say it’s a contradiction. Moving on to his solution, he also couldn’t have known if his solution worked or not so it can’t be assumed that that was a contradiction either. The change in question clashes with his intentions but GG has presumed that it would be in line with their intentions for Mercy.
Verdict: Not a contradiction. His words just didn’t age well lol.
I’m saying it’s illogical to assume that or even base your argument around that because it’s appealing to logic. It’s like saying the developers could’ve changed their stance on mass Res therefore I can argue in favour of mass Res. It’s a trash argument. We all know, for example, that the developers stance on mass Res hasn’t changed.
I’m not arguing that they changed their stance - YOU are. I’ve consistently based my arguments off of what the developers have already said. Not what I’m assuming they’re going to say.
You’re the one making assumptions mate. All I’ve done is refer to what the developers have said themselves.
Are you dumb? In what world is it smart to pocket a hero with already high damage when you have someone another DPS with medium damage. The only thing I can think of is to break a certain damage threshold but we’re talking about Echo here…
It’s an hyperbole. Don’t directly reply to it lmfao. Tf, this is common sense. Anyway, her sticky bombs do 180 damage but are you forgetting that she has a primary that does 51 damage (102 with headshots). Then there’s her beam that is the same as Moira’s but ramps up as you lower the enemy’s health. Someone with 20HP will die instantly. Besides, this damage threshold of yours isn’t even consistent enough. Most Echo’s arent going to land all their bombs on a single squishy. Compare that to Ashe’s headshots which one shot squishies which Mercy’s damage boost.
Except you should know what a main healer is by now. We’ve been arguing for a considerable amount of time and her entire debate revolves around Mercy’s role as a main healer. If you don’t even know what the focal point of this debate means, again, why are you arguing with me? You need to prepare yourself before entering a debate. Not just insert yourself in and go, “explain this and explain that for me because I don’t understand”. That’s not a debate. That’s just you asking for help since you simply don’t know.
I mean, that sentence alone in the three sentenced summarised definition of a main healer. If you want me to be specific, I would’ve said that they are generally good at healing and sustaining multiple teammates with varying health pools. My bad for assuming that you at least understood the basics. That aside, this is just cherry-picking. Just look a few words to the right.
- “lacks utility”
- “don’t have good defensive ultimates”
And the hero you pick that best fits this description is…
drumroll
Lucio? lmfao. Okay then.
He isn’t though. You just can’t identify what a main healer is, even when given a summarised defintion of one.
A top 500 (Ryan) also agreed with my classification of a main healer and off-support. Most people on these forums know what a main healer and off-support is. Multiple videos have been made on what an off-support and main support. Pro players in OWL also occasionally use the terms. Oh look! another summarised definition of a main healer on a website made to define Overwatch terminology:
A hero whose kit primarily focuses on restoring other heroes health. Typically, a main support will focus solely on healing teammates and very rarely try to deal damage to enemies.
Oh look! A thread in this very forum:
Again, very summarised but you get the picture. They all have been consistent. Meanwhile, you insist that my definition is nonsense. Sounds like you’re the one that’s talking nonsense. 
Well, given my definition, it’s going to be someone who has either low heals or high heals. If that’s not enough, look at their ability to sustain teammates. If you still can’t figure it out, look at how much utility they provide or ask yourself if they’re generally good at peeling. If that’s not enough, look at their ultimates. Or even better, identify all of these at once.
For example:
Ana:
- High healing output
- High sustain
- Burst heals
- Decent utility
- No defensive ultimate
(MAIN HEALER)
Vs.
Zenyatta
- Low healing output
- Poor sustain capabilities
- No Burst heals
- Really good utility
- Really good defensive ultimate
(OFF-SUPPORT)
It’s not difficult unless you’re intentionally making it difficult.
Because statistically Mercy does significantly more heals than the off-supports but pales in comparison to the main healers. Then there’s her utility. Better than most of the main healers but is lacking when compared to the off-supports. How bout ultimate? Not a good defensive ultimate when compared to the off-supports (or even in general) but as an ultimate, it’s still pretty good as an offensive took and is about as defensive as the other main healer’s ultimates. Now there’s healing outputs per second for primarys. Take a look at this:
- Moira: 65 +16.25 per second
- Ana: 93.75HP per second (1.25 shots per second so this is mathematically for comparison sakes)
- Baptiste: 60HP per second (assuming I did the calculation right. Its 50HP per 0.8 seconds. Hopefully it’s just multiplying by 1.2 to get 1 whole second)
- Mercy: 50HP
This doesn’t even take into account abilities that give you more heals:
- Ana’s Nade
- Moira’s Orb
- Bap’s AoE heals
Meanwhile, Mercy has squat.
In conclusion, she has qualities of both an off-support and main healer which is why I used her as the cut-off between the two subcategories. Before her rework or back in launch even, there was a clear cut off without Mercy representing that. Zen and Lucio were off-supports whilst Mercy was the main support.
She doesn’t.
How is it irrelevant? You seem to have this weird belief that any stats that don’t encompass the entire player base is not important when it is very much important to look and analyse the statistics of those who are good at the game. You’re just mad I ain’t just sticking to overall statistics which are arguably even worse.
Also:
Meanwhile, you keep insisting that I only look at your overall statistics. 
I know what you’re arguing. You’re suggesting that this is a false dilemma and that there is more than just two options here. I’ve disagreed and am still disagreeing that there are more than two roles. As I’ve said, since the dawn of Overwatch there has been a main healer and off support.
Your argument is only valid if there was a third or fourth sub-category in which you could place supports.
Because I have proven my point? You just don’t want to agree with me and are insisting that I’m incorrect. That doesn’t mean my point or the evidence i used is actually incorrect though.
No, she’s not. In GM, she’s roughly doing the same amount of heals as Brig. She’s also healing considerably less on average than the other main healers who are close to each other.
No, it isn’t. Are you dumb? I’ve explained multiple times why I’m going to focus on GM and Pro stats but I even cited low-rank stats.
In total I’ve mentioned:
- Bronze
- Silver
- Gold
- Platinum
- GM
- Pro play
Meanwhile, all you’ve done is look at overall statistics. Just from looking at all you’ve brought to the table, it looks like you’re the one that’s cherry-picking.
I’ve only said that I’m going to use GM stats for balance purposes. Since you whined like a baby, I also partially cited low-rank stats since Mercy is a low skill floor hero (when I didn’t need to) but apparently I’m just picking whatever proves my point…
I only left out Diamond and Masters. Meanwhile, you didn’t look at individual ranks at all and have only stated overall stats. 
I didn’t. A hero can be picked for her utility whilst lacking in utility. Hence, we have Mercy and her current state. Do you recall Ryan’s stats?
Like your whole argument.
I’m just gonna ignore every point that starts of with this lol. You really can’t accuse me of cherry-picking if I’ve provided a legitimate reason for focusing on those stats. Making fun of my reasoning doesn’t affect the legitimacy of it.
Just re-read what I wrote. I gave you a summarised definition that was even intentionally written in short sentences so you wouldn’t get confused.
For parts of my definition, I quite literally paraphrase the developer’s own words.
How do you think I figured out where you got your statistics? I just scrolled through Overbuff. It ain’t difficult. Once again though, I’m only looking at GM stats for balance purposes. Ask anyone else who’s argued with me. Heck, just go the search bar and type in “GM Stats for balance purposes” with my username next to it.
But they have the largest health pools and absorb the most damage? Lmfao, what this is waffling about Ana that you’re presenting to me.
Which apparently only you have a problem with… My summarised definition is consistent with other interpretations of a main support. You’re the only one pretending as if it doesn’t exist.
But her sustain would allow her to excel at healing multiple targets including targets with large health pools and I never said that all main healers need burst heals? I’m saying that as of now, only some heroes within the main healers category have burst heals. Mercy, on the other hand, doesn’t have burst heals or high single target heals.
And I’m still arguing better than TREB. Imagine if I had my entire brain. :3
Yes, much has changed. More main healers were added to the game with much higher healing outputs than Mercy. If anything, that is further justification for 60HP rather than going back in time to 50HP when back then, the only supports at the time were Zen and Lucio who all did low heals in general. There’s also damagecreep which has steadily increased over the years. Just recently, Soldier’s damage was buffed.
No, you can’t because then you’d have to designate blame to the kit that has changed, not the thing that remained unchanged. If CD Res was making her overpowered you nerf that. You don’t nerf something else as a substitute. Then again, the 13th nerf already saw Mercy being pulled out of the META so even if they absolutely had to nerf her healing instead, they didn’t need to if they just waited for her stats to balance out.
Does it though? All you have to do is ask yourself this question:
Will I die if I Res this person?
No? Then go for it. Yes? Then hold your horses.
The other thing you could also worry about it is when to Res but let’s be real, any Res during a fight or even commencing a fight is good. Resses after fights are over are bad but most Mercy’s aren’t going to do that unless they’re potatoes.
Yes, but it requires a teammates death and there’s downtime plus it’s incredibly. On paper, it’s burst heals but that value varies between heroes and isn’t consistent when compared to good burst heals like Ana’s nade.
Honestly, I think 60HP is only a slight buff. I don’t want huge changes to Mercy either. Especially given how hard they flopped with Mercy’s rework. If they really wanted, I wouldn’t mind 55HP but I honestly don’t think it’s necessary. We know that Mercy was already falling out of META following her 13th nerf.
Meh, that would make her more of an off-support but it still wouldn’t her role as an off-support. She pales in comparison to actual off-supports. If they were leaning towards that direction, huge changes would be required. They would need to shorten Valkyrie but make it more powerful, buff her utility (Res and Dmg boost. That’s so risky for multiple reasons) and put less emphasis on her heals.
I really don’t think that’s necessary if we have the option to slightly buff her healing output and give her 60HP.
Besides, damage boost, Res doesn’t really add anything to skill ceilings. It’s arguably less skilful than what we had before because she’s no longer earning it. As for enjoyment, well… Who really wants to be disabled for 1.75 seconds? It’s more of a hindrance if anything. 
Yes, but I just prefer balance over fun. I think a buff that finally makes her bakanced is better than a buff that makes her more fun. Fun is also subjective and for me personally, I don’t think any buff you’re describing is going to make her more fun for me to play.
So target prioritization basically. I’m sure every support in the game who doesn’t have AoE heals as their primary needs to worry about this. Even then, look at Ana who’s also single target besides nade. She’s completely overshadowing Mercy.
Is there really going to be a realistic situation where you’re not going to be required to do anything though? Sure, there are times where you literally have nothing to do (Downtime between fights for example) but does that really mean much? I don’t see how it’s relevant when most of the time, you are going to be doing something. This applies to everyone.
Former GM player here. I don’t think I’ve ever been in a situation where I’ve opted to not heal or damage boost teammates.
I just realised that I could possibly be misinterpreting you so If I am I’d aprreciate it if you could clarify.
This is if Mercy was being played as an off-support and not a main healer. In general, having two main healers isn’t a good thing. Mercy is dancing between the two roles and that’s the thing I have a problem with. Her role for either isn’t solidified. Is she supposed to be picked for heals or damage boost? As of now, the former is the case but that goes against the developer’s own words about Mercy being a main healer.
Don’t worry. I’m not going to rank share you. Most of what you said is grounded in logic. 
This is apart of what I believe a main healer is. A main healer should be good at healing large health pool targets or at the very least be good at sustaining them.
Also, I’m going MIA after writing this long reply because I’m honestly so tired and don’t want to write another one for a while so sorry if I don’t respond to you. I’ll definitely read your responses though.
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What is the point of paying such special attention to developers and their comments when they can come up with these comments for anything? Recall only the changes that were then rolled back. First, they write the reason why it must be done exactly, and then they come up with the reason why it needs to be returned
It seems like sometimes you can notice the same thing, only turned in the opposite direction
If they want to change something, no past comments will stop them.
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You. Shouldn’t. Need. Another. Main. Healer. Period.
Mercy was designed to beam juggle and work well in mobile and/or spread out comps. You shouldn’t need to run a Moira or Ana in order to run Mercy. Should we just nerf Ana and Moira’s healing because hey you can run them together so one can heal the tanks ? You don’t need to run Moira or Mercy with Ana, you don’t need to run Mercy or Ana with Moira, you can run an off healer with a DEFENSIVE ULT. Like I’m so sick of this idea that Mercy for some reason shouldn’t be allowed to heal tanks at a normal pace and then everyone struggles to figure out why dive comps feel out of wack and Zen is struggling so much. Mercy being a viable option as a main healer is healthy for the game PERIOD.
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I think you’re looking at it all wrong though. It was Jeff who said the term main healer and off healer was a player base made term and not something they thought of. If you want to get overly technical, Main Support and Flex Support are more appropriate for the roles of a typical 2/2/2, as was the adoption from competitive player roles. Funny enough, Flex support was Zen/Ana/Moira/Bap, while Main is usually Lucio/Mercy/Bap, depending the team comp, respectfully.
The point I’m getting at is these “sub roles” truly mean nothing. They’re not some set in stone thing to shoehorn heroes into. They’re convenient when discussing meta’s but that’s about it. Ana has been played like an off healer during moth. Mercy has been played like an off healer during the most recent death ball. Lucio was a main healer during dive. It all depends on the team comp, and what the meta demands.
What we do know is how these heroes apply their healing. We’ve got burst healers and sustain healers. Mercy is undeniably the best sustain healer, but sustain healing in current patch is near useless due to the high amount of one shots and low ttk combo’s in the game. That doesn’t take away the fact that Mercy enables specific team comps where she is ran as the main healer, keeping up the core of that team comp.
Side note: when I say core, I’m talking about the win condition hero’s in the team comp. An example would be during early Dive. Zen, Winston and Tracer were core to the win condition. Zen’s discord with Winston’s bubble to isolate targets and Tracer’s damage to secure the kills on those discorded targets. Lucio was considered the main healer in that team comp, that is until Mercy got her rework and kept those heroes up better. Being able to peel for them if needed, amp up healing and speed boosting them out of trouble was replaced by a higher sustain hps, and just resurrecting the dead team mate to bring discord or bubble back into the fight.
You don’t need to know about it, I’m telling you how it was. That was how early dive was played. Between season 4 to 6, it was Lucio, Zen. Ana had her damage crippled and Mercy only became popular on ladder for a brief moment due to an sr exploit with Mass Res that put gold Mercy players into GM. It’s the entire reason we don’t have personal performance based SR passed diamond anymore. Dive was literally just a game of kill the Zen in it’s early days.
https://thegamehaus.com/overwatch/a-comprehensive-history-of-overwatch-metas-part-three-a-tale-of-two-supports/2019/12/14/https://i.redd.it/ln0mmvzbolh31.pnghttps://www.dailyesports.gg/play-overwatch-like-the-pros-dive-composition/
No, no, no. Mercy was out healing even Moira. Mercy’s average healing was 16k over the course of a match.
And side note. Stats without context is meaningless.
Mercy out heals Ana on average till Masters, typically Diamond but thats besides the point. Ana is only competition to Mercy’s healing for the top 10% of the player base. On top of that, Mercy’s healing is directly affected by her pick rate and the meta team comp. She will heal more through sustained damage than she will through burst. The meta right now is burst.
Like, lets put this into perspective. GM players will land their shots, bursting down targets through even Zen’s ult these days. Meanwhile the average gold and plat mercy, who can heal up damage due to less mechanically skilled players not focus firing properly are healing comparable averages to a GM Ana in a Meta that favors her. It begs the question, how much would mercy actually heal in a meta that favors her?
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But that’s just the thing. Nothing remains wholly unchanged when a kit sees significant changes. Sonic Arrow, for instance, sees increased power when Hanzo’s projectile speed is higher. His Primary Fire damage was likewise worth a whole lot more when his Storm Arrow was 75 damage than when 70. The difference between the 75 and 70 mattered only to killing Tracer; the combination of Primary Fire and Storm Arrows mattered to a heck of a lot more.
As with any Barrier, Immortality Field, Speed Boost, Discord, or the like Resurrection is not solely the Mercy’s concern. It is no more a solely even a healer concern than contesting an enemy sniper or reaching useful angles is solely a DPS concern.
If you would get angry at a teammate for not making use of Immortality Field, why would you not also, when your allied Soldier is undoubtedly going to die, be ticked when they make their final dodge deeper into the enemy’s zone of control rather than to within reach of the corner, a mere 6 feet in the opposite direction? And if there’s no actual mechanism to optimize there — no increase in skill ceiling, no decisions to be made or concerns to address — then how could you ever get ticked then?
Alas, if all that would just be too arduous for anyone to even consider, then, true, I suppose it introduces absolutely no further team play or space-controlling value or mechanics, just as barriers, Immortality, Discord, and the like probably do not. /shrug
So you have a new and unique decision to make, and yet there’s zero increase to skill ceiling, even in terms of decisions to be made?
And that hybrid is exactly what I’d want, hence the words “I’d rather”. That being said,
None of this is necessary. No part of what I said necessitates any of that.
Nor, technically, is that. Most of her utility is not, in fact, mutually exclusive with her healing. Improving the accessibility of the nonetheless inferior use of Mercy’s time, especially when serving as a main healer, does not change her optimal outputs. It just makes her feel a whole lot more polished and well-rounded.
This seems to take some serious mental gymnastics, or else an unhealthy fixation on an arbitrary parameter.
Not one ability in this game is “earned”. Yet every kill that one achieves through skillful use of those abilities, I would argue, is. Or does a Helix Rocket on a Pharah and the subsequent finishing blow 4-5 shots later mean nothing outside of its ult percentage generated.
Mass Rez was literally fly to any one of the corpses roughly nearish to the others, hit Q, instantly become invincible, complete your cast (which gives you enough time to reset GA) and fly off. Sure, there was something to that for your team to play around; they could play recklessly for a brief time, assuming that their deaths would soon be collectively overridden anyways. Likewise the other team would have to slow the rate of play, avoiding overly quick steamrolls, in order to bait out the rez early and then crush that team again with whatever ult advantage they’d hopefully gained by not running Mercy.
That was arguably the only thing iconic about playing with or into a Mercy. Zen had his constant threat of focus fire. Lucio had his constant threat of hastened engagement or disengagement. Ana had lines of sights to deny or pressure, nades to eat or block, darts to bait out before ulting, so on and so forth. Mercy, instead, had next to nothing only the matter of her own team-dependent positioning – until her ultimate, which added something merely to slow down gameplay – and then not but her positioning again.
By contrast, “CD Rez” offers that gameplay constraint constantly, and rather than obliging the enemy team to pace down, hold itself back from making big plays without first killing the Mercy, it obliges either that same prior assassination or that one’s team commit, make the plays and/or take the space, and pace up.
Ana’s nades are the opposite of consistent in value. The range in value between its floor and ceiling is immense.
So, too, are the ranges in what can be accomplished with an Immortality, a Discord, a Repair Pack, a Speedboost. So, too, is what can be accomplished from simply healing an off-angle DPS. This is not uniquely a problem. It’s not even uniquely significant. Yes, the difference between rezzing a Roadhog and a Soldier is the difference between getting 6.7 or 20 HPS out of Rez itself, but the difference between what those two can put out, the damage taken they can spare you through pressure or enemies killed, can be similarly large. It may be that if you’re likely to lose another after having just lost a player by far and away the worst on your team, that dead weight player may be worth leaving dead to keep your cooldown at the ready, but the same is true of engaging, or Amping, or nading to save any other single ally.
Out of META is not the same as non-competitive. If you’re worrying about the first, I can see why we’re not seeing eye to eye here. I care only that she is wholly competitive, not that she sees majority playtime.
Yes, it is. But that’s the point. You’re rezzing doing 114 to 342 HPS over those 1.75 seconds, resecuring an extra member for your team fight, and allowing the added damage of what would otherwise be an overextension. Immortality Field has counterplay. Speedboost, in a sense, has counterplay. Even Moira Orbs have forms of counterplay. Why should Rez be free and scarcely counterable?
What part of gutting the risk behind using it makes it necessarily fun? I like my reward to come with risk. ‘High reward, no risk’ is no better, at least to me, than ‘high risk, little reward’.
And Rez is most certainly got a decent punch of reward there. Is it more valuable than an Immortality Field? No, not necessarily. When the latter is optimized, I’d even have to say it’s rarely ever more valuable. But it’s certainly worth a fair bit, and I’d rather have that, and all the concerns that come with it, than dumb down her kit because you don’t want to depend so much on your team to maximize her forms of output beyond mere healbotting. That feels a bit too much like a Rein wanting to ditch his shield in favor of an additional self-regenerating HP.
No. Target prioritization… prioritizes between targets. Every support, even those without mutual exclusive outputs – in fact, every hero regardless of role – has that.
Decision making means… decision making. Hers are more frequent than any other support’s because she not only has more responsive healing and choices between outputs (“output prioritization”), but providing those outputs has more obvious potential consequences upon her as well, which she must then do her best to mitigate where necessary.
Let’s not take something that was rather clear to anyone playing Mercy, put a folksy spin on it to call it something else, and then proceed to beat a strawman.
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Also, can we please note that this does not include any HP restored through use of Rez (an additional ~1300-2000 HP over those same average time spans), let alone the value of aggression permitted to one’s DPS through having responsive and consistent healing?
- I’m fully aware that the latter is not a part of a raw healing total. But if you’re going to confuse Average Total Healing with a healer’s value, then it’s probably worth reminding you that… one is merely part of the whole, and that whole is most likely not perfectly equal to the sum of its parts.
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I haven’t laughed like that for a long time.
Is it nothing that players often die from lack of treatment or other help from Mercy? And then she SOMETIMES can return them to battle.
But as usual, you can’t understand Mercy’s real problem. No it’s not his average healing, but he does have a burst healing problem.
60 hps is the minimum for main support, it has been understood for months and months after its nerf. Yet still to discuss his average healing. As main support Mercy is failed, it cannot play with lucio / zen / brig but only with another main support (moira, bap, ana).
But since Mercy doesn’t have a defensive final like that of Lucio / zen / brig, we can’t even call it an off-support.
For these reasons there are two ways to clarify its position:
Or go back to 60 hps (simpler solution)
Or rework of his ultimate to make it defensive. (No valkyria now it’s not a defensive ultimate)
According to what, exactly? Is this regardless of context, the strength of all surrouding abilities, irrelevant?
10 HPS makes virtually no difference in effective TTK except at relatively slow intervals that would have precisely killed your ally.
Again, I’m not against Mercy having more HPS. I think she should. But there’s nothing inherent to 60 HPS that suddenly makes or breaks her ability to perform as a main healer. Increasing her Primary Fire value by 20% does not increase her total healing, the extra pressure or ability to extend that she offers to at-risk allies, or almost anything else by anywhere near 20%. So why are we treating it as the one and only savior?
Because these 10HP/s actually do something very important for Mercy.
I know that it sounds not like a lot, but it’s still a 20% increase in raw healing.
It puts her healing power into a sweet spot where her healing is good for ~200HP heroes and Tanks.
She would be able to bail out Tanks, but not overheal them (as in making them too hard to kill)
This is very important since that detail changes her entire playstyle to the team wide healer she used to be.
At the moment, if you try to bail out a tank… you might as well just let them die and do something else. And if someone in your team is hard focused, the same thing applies.
But with 60HP/s, you could actually help them and don’t need to just ignore them or use your Ult to do something which almost all other healers can do with basic abilities.
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I honestly don’t think 60 HPS would do all that much for Mercy now
Frankly, I would rather her stay at 50 HPS but she get some sort of healing augment on cooldown (you know, like how every other healer except Zen has). Perhaps do 50 + 10% of target’s max HP for 3 seconds, 10 second cooldown which begins on ability termination. So, on a squishie, you’d get 3 seconds of 70 HPS, and on a Hammond, it’s 3 seconds of 110 HPS. Tanks are less painful to heal, and she can better react to incoming damage, but Ana remains the more powerful single-target healer for those with decent aim.
60 HPS is just too paltry against the amount of damage in the game now, and she was fading from meta even when she had it back in Double Sniper. For 60 HPS to make her relevant again, you’d need to pair it with some fairly considerable nerfs to Ana
And? Isn’t that exactly what Rez is for?
And, again, if supplying effective survival-duration to overly greedy tanks is the issue, why are we even looking for a fixed HPS? Why not, say, [40 HP + 5% of target HP] per second?
Alternatively, why try to further pigeon her into a main healer? Once we account of the health restored by her Resurrection casts, she barely at all trails behind Ana for average healing done. That’s not a bad place at all. So why not take more advantage of her unique capacities, then?