Mercy: 60hps is needed

fine but make winston Tesla cannon 70 dps

There is no need for that. Winston shouldn’t be solo diving in the first place. He deserves to have his damage cancelled by a Mercy.

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Prove that with STATS & EVIDENCE

Where are the healing stats per game compared with other healers?

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Mercy deserve a nerf on guardian angel. So finally winston & other flankers can start punish her for the pos-mistakes.

Atm you can spam GA + Super jump without being punished

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https://www.overbuff.com/heroes
This is the website used by the community for statistics.

Looking at GM statistics over this week, this month and the last 3 months:
Mercy is out healed by every main healer: Ana, Baptiste and Moira.

Moira: 14,778
Baptiste: 13,691
Ana: 12,806
Mercy: 10,963

Now I want to refer you to what Geoff Goodman (head of balance and hero design) says about Mercy:

Per match, Mercy has the least amount of healing when compared to her rivals. By the developers’ own logic, she needs a healing buff.

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It really isn’t. What else could raw possibly reference besides healing output per second. I definitely can’t be consistency since literally no one describes that as “raw”.

“More healing than any other healer over the course of a match”. There’s really no other way you can interpret this besides the fact that she’s intended to be a main healer that’s supposed to excel at healing over anything else. You could cherry-pick “consistency” but given the entire post as a whole, the term seems to just be a throwaway adjective to describe Mercy’s beam.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here because your grammar is poor in this paragraph. I’ll give two answers based on what I think you’re trying to say:

[Respond to the one you’re talking about or clarify what you meant to say]

  • You’re saying Moira’s heals are harder to hit than Mercy’s

This is correct since Mercy has a lock-on. That being said, Moira’s heals aren’t difficult to aim in general. It’s an AoE spray that has a 15m range. Realistically, all you have to do is spray in the general vicinity of your team or teammate and job complete. The skill difference in both support’s heals isn’t huge enough to justify one having heals drastically lower than the other.

  • You’re saying that it’s way too easy for Mercy to outheal Moira (and other main healers) if she has 60HP

Really? Well, let’s go back in time real quick. Pre-rework Mercy had 60HP. Was she absurdly overpowered? Hardly. She wasn’t even B tier back then. Now, after the rework CD Res and Valkyrie rear their ugly heads in. This made her ridiculously OP and she ended up dominating the META for months. Now, obviously the problem is clear here. It’s CD Res that’s causing the problem. Why? Because her heals weren’t changed at all between these two states. You can’t designate blame to something that made a hero overpowered if that thing didn’t get changed between the two states at all.

Of course, you could argue that Valkyrie made her heal exponentially more. Oh wait!

:thinking: Wow, it almost looks like her heals statistics remained roughly the same and yet one Mercy was absurdly broken whilst the other barely made it to B tier.

Woah there! Let’s not put words into my mouth. I never said that what Geoff said is absolute. I’m saying that this was one of the only replies where he addresses Mercy’s intended role. Unless you’re arguing that the Overwatch developers aren’t consistent with their intentions, me quoting Geoff is certainly valid. That aside, let’s address that part of his comment then:

For obvious reasons, I’m going to assume that he means main healer when he says “healer”. Mercy’s healing statistics prior to the healing nerf, as we’ve already established, hasn’t changed significantly at all since the rework. But hold on! She was most definitely overpowered if she had a 100% pickrate in matches at the time so what’s making her overpowered? I’ve already said this before and the answer is her Resurrect. From the get-go this was never a problem with healing. It was resurrect that made her overpowered. It was resurrect that made her a must pick. It was resurrect that made her difficult to compete with other supports for the role of main healer.

It’s painfully clear that this healing nerf was only done because the devs had run out of options. They burned through 13 nerds and Mercy was still a problem. At that point, they literally couldn’t have done anymore without absolutely dumpstering the hero and so they decided to go for her heals. This was a logical decision at first (since they were avoiding trashing the hero completely) but the META has already began to shift after the 13 nerfs to Mercy. As I’ve said previously, Double Sniper (a comp Mercy naturally excels in) was already losing attraction and GOATs had just started to be picked up. This means that the 13 nerfs had started to take affect but Blizzard rushed the process. After more than a year, it’s time they reversed that mistake…

In conclusion, Geoff clearly established his intention for Mercy (as a main healer) but the change in question failed to fulfil that intention.

How are they going to do that if Mercy has no travel time on her healing? Tf… No logical person is going to read Geoff’s comments and come to that conclusion. It’s obvious they’re saying that they wanted Mercy to continue being picked for her healing output. That’s not happening right now though since she’s being picked as a pseudo off-support that pockets Ashe or Pharah.

No, it’s not… Oh. You think I’m referring to overall statistics. Sorry but I only look at GM and pro statistics for balance purposes. I also occasionally look at extremely lower ranks since Mercy’s skill floor is quite low.

Anywhere, here are my stats:

  • Moira - 14,779 (MAIN HEALER)

  • Baptiste - 13,261 (MAIN HEALER)

  • Ana - 12,283 (MAIN HEALER)

  • Mercy - 10,928 (???)

  • Briggite - 10,289 (OFF-SUPPORT)

  • Lucio - 8,456 (OFF-SUPPORT)

  • Zen - 7,792 (OFF-SUPPORT)

On an unrelated note, Mercy is the only support that can fulfill both roles whilst simultaneously being bad at both. She outputs more heals than 2 of the off-supports by a large margin but is dead last when compared to the main healers. Then there’s her utility which is lacking considerably when compared to the other off-supports.

Remember what I said before? Limbo


If you want more stats, why don’t we take a quick peek at her pickrate in the low ranks. Naturally, given her low skill floor, she’d be picked more in those ranks.

  • Bronze - 3rd most picked Support (Literally behind Ana and Moira. Imagine that, Mercy is being played less than Ana in the lowest rank in the game. :joy:)

  • Silver - 3rd again! (Behind Ana and Moira again…)

  • Gold and Platinum - 3rd… (Again, behind Ana and Moira)


Okay, so Moira being played more is understandable since she’s also a low skill floor hero but Ana? Excuse me… That’s literally pathetic.


Onto Pro stats:

I don’t even need to find em:

Would you look at that. This literally proves that she’s only being picked to pocket heroes and not because of her heals. Even if you were right and Geoff was referring to consistency that’s not the case right now, is it?

Not looking at overall stats. Sorry luv.

No, that’s included. Same with Mercy’s damage boost. You’re technically still dealing that amount of damage. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Not here to talk about Moira my dude. That aside, if we’re solely talking about balance, there’s an even bigger outlier than Moira.

drumroll

Ana

Sis literally is the most played hero in all ranks besides Bronze. :joy: Even in bronze she’s only 2nd place; behind Moira which makes sense since Moira is a low skill floor hero. It doesn’t make sense for Ana though since her skill floor is not low at all. I’m not advocating for Ana nerfs though! We can literally skip that if we just buff Mercy and make her a main healer. :slight_smile:

I’m not treating his comment as gospel. This is a poor argument. If you want proof, just scroll up and see how I argued against his reasoning behind the nerf. Throughout this entire discussion, I’ve made it clear that I’m only using the comment to reference the developer’s intentions for Mercy. This doesn’t change as the game progresses unless the developers say otherwise. Everything else is up for discussion.

Situations changing doesn’t mean that their intentions have changed. That’s appealing to ignorance since you don’t know if they’ve changed their stance or not. The logical thing to do is to accept what they’ve said so far rather than assuming that they possibly could’ve changed their stance.

Please don’t tell me you don’t even know what Moth Meta was about…

For the love of G-

Ok, let me enlighten you :smiley::

Moth Meta was a period of time where Mercy was incredibly overpowered and was being picked in about every single match in existence. This is because her rework turned her multi-Resurrect into a CD ability. Furthermore, at the time, her ultimate reduced the CD and even granted charges for Resurrect. 24/7 tempo ressing is broken no matter how you slice it.

The term “Moth” comes from her new ultimate; Valkyrie as it made her practically invisible, buffed her entire kit and gave her Resurrect charges. Like a Moth, she was a bright target that was excruciatingly difficult to shoot.

Moth Meta was never about “Group Res”.

No-. A Mercy pocketting an Echo is a waste of time. You’re losing potential value by pocketting someone else who can better use that damage boost. If you’re genuinely pocketing an Echo (a hero that’s already good on their own) instead of pocketing the second DPS who could better utilise the damage boost, you’re not playing Mercy right. Damage boost excels at making medium damage dealing heroes better at dealing damage. If Echo already deals a billion damage, she literally doesn’t need that 30% damage boost.

You don’t know what a main healer is? Why are you even debating with me then.

A main healer is a support that excels at healing multiple targets and usually lacks utility as compensation. They also generally don’t have good defensive ultimates.

So far, we have:

  • Ana - somewhat decent utility and burst heals. Ultimate is not defensive.
  • Moira - zero utility and AoE heals plus consistent damage. Ultimate is not a good defensive ultimate.
  • Bap - burst heals and decent utility. Not a good defensive ultimate.
  • Mercy??? - meh heals and low utility. Not a good defensive ultimate.

Moving on to off-supports, they are supports who usually have high utility, low healing outputs and good defensive ultimates. So far, we have:

  • Brig - amazing utility, decent heals and good defensive ultimate.
  • Lucio - amazing utility, low heals and amazing defensive ultimate.
  • Zen - amazing utility, high damage, low heals and really good defensive ultimate.
  • Mercy???

As of now, every support has a clear role as shown above. Everyone but Mercy… She’s the only one that doesn’t have a cut-off because she has the worst of both worlds.

No, it isn’t…

If you can identify all the supports that aren’t main healers you’ve also automatically identified the ones who are the main healers? Did you even read what you wrote… There’s only two sub roles in the support class.

Because she’s in a limbo between the two roles. Yes, she could be a solid off-healer but not in her current state. She’d need a ton of changes (not to mention the devs would also have to clarify their intentions for her now). They’d need to make Valkyrie a better defensive ultimate, buff her Resurrect and emphasise her damage boost over her heals.

Why on Earth would the developers even bother with that when they literally could just add 10HP to her overall HP/s and make her a good main healer again. We’re saving time, making her balanced and keeping our intentions for Mercy consistent.

I’m not-

Firstly, I’m using GM and Pro statistics for balance purposes. I’m also occasionally going to cite low, low ranks pickrate stats since Mercy is a low skill floor hero. Secondly, she is neither an off-support or a main healer because:

  • She’s literally being picked more for her utility than her heals - to damage boost certain DPS heroes (Suggests she’s an off-support)

  • Lacks utility overall and does way more heals than most of the off-supports (Suggests she’s a main healer)

  • Has a bad defensive ultimate (Suggests she’s a main healer)

  • Has mediocre heals when compared to the other main healers (Suggests she’s an off-healer)


Like I’ve said, she’s arguably both but is still bad at both. Blizzard have said previously that she’s a main healer. Therefore, I’m going to suggest a change that finally allows her to be a good main healer as opposed to a bad main healer and bad off-healer at the same time.

No, it isn’t!

Tbf, I should’ve clarified what statistics I was citing. I just thought it was obvious. That aside, I’m certainly not basing my whole argument off of just heals. Scroll up a bit. :stuck_out_tongue:

Wat? Are you dumb? The two are practically the same. If you’re going to be the best healer in a match, you’re naturally going to output more heals than the other support. If that’s the case, you’re already better at healing tanks because they have large health pools.

[Best healing per match = really good at healing = excels at healing heroes with large health pools = good at healing tanks.]

The two are practically the same except you’re just using a hyperbole for the sake of your argument. Main healers are supposed to excel at healing tanks because they’re supposed to be good at healing targets in general.

Which only the main healers have? I’ve consistently said that main healers are supposed to be good at healing tanks. You literally haven’t disproved anything. Also, “infrequent”? You mean frequent, right?

Bap too. Also, again, only main healers are good at burst heals. Hence = Main healers should be good at healing tanks. Moira may not have burst heals but she has AoE heals, easy resource management, an orb that provides even more heals and an ultimate that provides even more heals. Mercy is the only outlier here with no burst heals and low single target heals per second.

They all have the highest healing outputs in the game.

  • Ana has burst heals, something that enhances her heals and an ultimate that provides even more heals and turns teammates into super saiyans.

  • Moira literally only heals and damages with zero utility. She has AoE heals with a good healing output per second, an orb that provides even more heals and an ultimate that provides even more heals. Safe to say that she’s going to be pretty good at healing tanks. Heck, she can heal multiple tanks at once.

  • Bap has burst heals, something that literally makes you unable to die and an ultimate that enhances your heals as well. He also has AoE heals. Again, he’s gonna be good at healing heroes with large health pools.

Yes… The above is referencing objective numbers in a vacuum. Other things that tell us who the main healers are are Overbuff statistics. These of course can’t account for every game but they don’t need to. The sample size is big enough for us to get an accurate reading.

Wdym? We know 60HP was fine since before she got nerfed, she was already losing attraction and the META was shifting to GOATs. Furthermore, her heals had stayed the same for the entirety of her existence; even after the rework so it’s safe to say that a nerf to it is not justified.

You mentioned 55HP but that’s just unnecessary. It’s of course the safer option but we already know how 60HP Mercy is going to play out. We’ve already experienced it when she got kicked out of META for GOATs following her 13 nerfs.

By “right situations”, do you mean whenever an Ashe or Pharah is picked so you can pocket them? I’ll tell you now that that isn’t balance and that shouldn’t stay the same.

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Upvoting purely because you must have put so much time into that response. I admire that :star_struck:

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Not gonna write a huge post because Ijekiel just did it all for me, but you’re wrong about quite a lot of things.

  1. Mercy is not the second highest healing output in the game. She’s fourth. Moira, Bap, Ana, Mercy, Brig in that order.

  2. Brig is only 300 healing behind Mercy on avg, BUT Brig outputs 6-8k armor per game which is basically “better healing” or “better health” so she technically does "outheal " Mercy in the sense of outputting more sustain.

  3. Main healer is someone who can be played with an off healer like Zen or Lucio and the team will have enough healer. Mercy can’t do that. Mercy can only be played with an Ana or a Moira (who are main healers), so that implies Mercy can’t work as a main healer.

That’s all.

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super jump leaves you very exposed to hitscan and you can die more easily being in the air than of the ground - just ask pharra!

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It’s okay to buff an underpowered character without giving them compensation nerfs…
Also for your third point, the beam breaks because of the ultimate’s cast time, just like Genji’s and Soldier’s ults

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https://twitter.com/Aqua_Boost/status/1258482761737867271?s=20

xD It’s a death sentence against most hitscan and Hanzo.

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Winston tesla is 60 chain damage. Mercy would have 60hps as single target…

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Why are people obsessed with Winston, a main tank who does AOE cleave damage, being able to easily outdamage Mercy, a main healer who heals one person at a time…

He can’t outdamage Moira, Ana, or Bap…at all…

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I’ve actually gotten into a bad habit of superjumping like all the time. I need to remember to only use it of getting dived otherwise I’m dead xD

I always remebr Niandra’s rule. “Superjump should be used to position not as a positioning”

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It’s just another excuse.

To keep Mercy outclassed, the goal post is ever moving. Soon I expect to hear how broken she is on the Switch silver ladder.

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yeah but take dragon blade for instance. It has VERY high impactful results. It WARRANTS a cast time because it deals 120 DAMAGE / SWING

Mercy’s ult allows her to have 60HPS IN small 10m aoe to anyone close by…

I don’t think that warrants a cast time AND beam breakage

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The beam breakage IS the cast time.

Also, unlike channeled ultimates, transformation ults cannot end unless the hero is killed… So i’d take a cast time over my ult being cancelled any time

It doesn’t warrant it, per say, I just think that’s how Transformation ults are coded/work because you’re chaning your character/kit.

I’m not sure if they could find a way to work around the beam breakage/make it not happen. They COULD do a thing where she releases a small burst of healing in like a 20m AoE when she presses Valk, maybe 60 instant HP?

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Just to here for my traditional “Mercy doesn’t need 60 HPS because she’s not meant to be a tank healer anymore” reply. I’ll go now.

I mean I’m fine if she doesn’t get 60 HPS if they double down on her utility/her being a utility hero that focuses on boosting DPS output but I just hope she gets some sort of change to increase her viability in either role with the upcoming support patch.

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