[Mei-gathread] Does Mei feels balanced and underpowered at the same time?

here come the yearly buff: 1 mts to ice pillar’s height, next year we gonna get the 126 hp heal one guys, be happy … ha ha.

The sarcarms… it hurts

I will remain forever partial to the idea of resource based Cryofreeze. It doesn’t have the same total deletion, mobility, or spread of defense matrix so I think putting it on a similar system wouldn’t be anything totally broken, and it would add a lot of defensive versatility to what is currently an obnoxious “stall 4 seconds, receive immediate headshot” button or way to heal yourself out of combat while your healer is off who knows where.

i beat your literaly right)

Have just written two posts on “combat triangle” and the importance of CC heroes. This get me to think about Mei as an actually CC hero instead of the brawler and stuff that I’ve talked about before.

Theoretically, Mei falls into the “mage” type of heroes, which are mid-range heroes that has a diverse toolkit, but lower throughput. This got me thinking on “does Mei fulfill this role?” and I come up with a Mei idea that truly fill this “ice mage” role. Something like the following :

  • Freeze ray range increase
  • Icicle range reduced, potentially higher fire rate
  • Cryo trades half of its defensive power into CC / damage
  • Wall is weaker with lower CD, such that it is better for personal use
  • Blizzard trades half of its area denial into CC / damage
  • Only have 200 health

This sort of Mei would be really hard to dive, but can be easily taken down from range. She would also fill the role of control DPS much better, while significantly weakening her sustain and supportive power. I don’t know if this is good for Mei, but it sounds interesting to myself and is “kind of” fairer to fight.

btw, if you wanna check my posts on the subject I mentioned at the start, here are the links. I’ll copy the parts after /t necause apparently everyone can’t post links.

  • /t/why-dive-is-so-strong-introducing-combat-triangle-concept/37002
  • /t/ccs-are-necessary-to-counter-dive-and-are-counterable/39706

That Mei buff hint… Already seeing people complain about it, but the ability to freeze multiple enemies at once with her primary sounds promising, and actually makes her role meaningful and less clunky. I like the sound of it and look forward to seeing it in practice.

I think people are having a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, forgetting she has to maintain the freeze, and that shields block it, that it has an extremely short range, and that focus fire deals with her easily.

4 Likes

before any buff mei need be fixed is ridiculous how the bugs still without fixing after 2 years, the cryo cleansing debuff took 1 Full Year … yeah a Full dang year, if they dont fix the bugs first, the new “buffs” are going to do crap to help mei.

1 Like

Mei’s endothermic blaster could use a range increase, but I don’t think it’s the only thing that should be done it. The reason it feels so short is because it’s a projectile spray basically like the TF2 Pyro, so if she moves forward the “beam” shortens and if she aims elsewhere then it becomes “bendy” which gives it areas were there’s nothing and makes the freeze take longer. Blizzard stated long ago in a stream (IIRC it was the Ana reveal one) that what they designed Mei to be was an anti-flanker and recently that they want Mei to rely more on her primary fire than her secondary. The only way they can achieve this is either by making it easier to track people with primary fire (either by increasing the projectile spray fire rate, making it a hitscan beam like Zarya’s primary, or making the spray a wide cone), make it take less time to freeze someone (right now it takes 1.5 seconds), or make the primary fire pierce through targets so that she can freeze multiple people if they all try to body block each other; also, as I said earlier in this thread, damage increasing sources (Discord and etc) should allow Mei to freeze targets faster.

The icicles already have a small range in which they are effective, reducing that in favor of firing faster I don’t think would work. Unless you also increase it’s damage and her damage for icicle is already damn high. Personally I think her icicles should be left alone as they are now.

What do mean Cryo trades defense for CC/damage? Like it gains an AoE effect where targets are chilled/slowed and take damage but is shortened in duration? That I’d be on board for.

Depending on how much HP is taken away this could allow Mei to use her walls more often to split enemy teams and save hers from certain ults. So that could also work very well.

Reducing Blizzard from 10 m to 5 m (remember melee range is 3m) IMO is a horrible idea unless what you mean by increasing it’s CC/damage is increasing the slow to something like 90% and making targets freeze in .75 seconds (right now they take 2.5 seconds to freeze) and increasing the damage it deals from 19.4 DPS to like 40 DPS cause otherwise this is a nerf to an already wonky ult.

Reducing her to 200 health would be a helluva strong nerf as Mei has a large hitbox and with only 200 hp she would be easily dived on and taken out further making her a bad pick unless she burns through all her abilities.

I’m nervous about her changes.

Better hope she doesn’t get nerfed in 2 weeks time because pro players said she was too dominant like they did with Sombra. :roll_eyes:

2 Likes

Well well well… cheeky little bugger

3 Likes

I should have known this idea is controversial like crazy and should include actual stuff than just a few lines. Yet again we see the power of miscommunication (facepalm), I think I’ll have a more detailed version somewhere down the line such that it is clearer. The idea is to ChangE Mei into a true frost mage, where she is really strong against close range heroes via CCs, but obviously weaker against ranged heroes.

In the meantime let me explain a little bit more so we’ll have some actual ground for discussions.

For freeze ray the projectile speed should definitely increase with the range, perhaps some more than that. However, I’m concerned about Mei being able to just walk up to people and freezes them, such that I haven’t touch freeze rate and reduces her health.

For icicles, I still think 26m is not bad but back to the topic. My thought process on this is like “A mid-range hero should have anything at mid-range!” so I did this. I assume it will be much more threatening for enemies who wants to come close.

For cryo I think it would be something like reduced duration and cooldown, while adding “frost nova” to it. I’m thinking of she can use it both defensively and offensively, while able to punish enemies that are close by.

For wall I think it would go to a point where a heavy damage team can break through it, but flexible enough where blocking off a Winston to force an escape is meaningful. It kind of values blocking more than splitting in this case.

For blizzard I first think of reducing duration rather than range(how misleading is that!), but after reading your comment I think it could actually be a combination of both, perhaps something like 8m, 3.5s. In terms of strength I think it would at least have the same power as her blaster, such that she can use it for CC instead of area denial.

For health it is kind of tricky, I want her to be weak against Soldier (and perhaps McCree?), while Tracer shouldn’t be able to one-clip with ease. I guess 250 would kind of fit a defensive hero better, but I’m also not sure would her stronger combat performance make up for that.

But hey this is just another Mei change idea, and having new ideas to play with is always fun :DDD

That 0.1s change was needed though. As for 2s interrupt cooldown…ewww

An idea came to me the other day, about giving Mei a stronger identity as the anti-mobility hero.

  • Make Mei’s primary fire apply a progressive movement speed debuff, up to 50%. Maybe 10% per 0.1 second, maxing out at 0.5 second. This debuff should wear off at the same rate it’s applied, rather than simply ending after a predetermined duration.

  • Lockstepped with the movement speed debuff, apply an effectiveness debuff to all movement abilities.

  • Reduce its actual damage to a nominal amount, 1-5 per tick, just enough to get kill credit.

  • I also support making Mei’s ice wall immune to wall climb and wall ride abilities.

  • I also support the following changes to Mei’s ult: its interruptibility window ends when Snowball leaves Mei’s hand; and as part of its effect, it instantly cancels and disables all movement abilities.

1 Like

I actually really like the idea of cryo regenerating ammo :open_mouth:

Mei has no mobility, if she’s calmly walking up to the enemy team and freezing them. Then that teams needs to be way more aware of their surroundings. However, I do agree that she shouldn’t have a massive increase to her range. Maybe something like 12-14 m from her current “10” m, I say “10” cause it shortens if you move forward.

IMO her icicles are entirely reliant on a person’s ability to aim which is why I think icicles should be untouched as they’re a skill shot. Yes I would absolutely love if it did more damage or it traveled faster or had a longer effective range etc, but it’s fine where it is. The threat of getting close to Mei should be her freeze, but freeze is unreliable in it’s current state. Hell even I favor her secondary fire in close range to her freeze due to how weak the freeze mechanic is in anything that isn’t a 1v1.

Cryo, I like. It discourages crowding Mei while still leaving her weak at range. Especially if the AoE chill from this Cryo can stack with the freeze from her primary as it would allow her to punish those who get too close.

A heavy damage team can already melt her wall pretty quickly, her walls currently have 500 HP per pillar just a lone Junkrat/Pharah can burst one down by themselves allowing any non-tank (and I think Bastion) to walk through the space created so a full team can quickly destroy her wall. Though with the reduced CD it should make the reduced HP a worthy trade-off

Duration on Blizzard is currently 5 seconds at 10 m in diameter (not including cast-time, travel-time and deploy-time). Dropping it back to the original 8 m and reducing it to only 3.5 s would just make it even easier to escape her ult. Look how easily enemies escape right now, reducing it’s AoE and duration would not be worthy trade off if the only increase to it is reducing time to freeze by 1 second (from 2.5 to 1.5).

Mei can already be quickly bursted down by 76 and McCree at range and can easily be one-clipped by Tracer. 76 has Helix Rockets that can deal 120 damage which can easily be followed up by a quick burst of his primary, McCree has more control in close combat with his flashbang and he already can FB her and two-shot her in the head (or fan-the-hammer) MUCH faster than Mei can freeze him even at her current 250 HP, Tracer can deal 240 damage in one-clip without the headshot modifier. Reducing Mei to 200 makes it even easier for these heroes to eliminate her.

4 Likes

Hello fellow Mei mains :wink:

Guess its time I chimed in with my two cents. I will write my concrete buff ideas (and commentary on already suggested changes) at the bottom of this post as a TL;DR; but let me explain how I decided on these. Bear with me as I am very interested in the experiences and viewpoints of other (Mei) players from all skill-levels in OW.

As the average e-stalker has probably already checked 10 seconds ago I have 400+ hours on Mei. But, before this unavoidably gets mentioned, yes I am also stuck in plat for 9 seasons.

Why do I feel to mention this first you ask? Well because there is a big difference between changes that will make an average player happy (and get more use out of a hero) and those that might make a pro-player consider picking a hero for more than just to stall a B objective… (Which part of the player-base should actually be pandered to is a topic for another time. If interested just do research why StarCraft 2 is basically dead outside pro tournaments).

So how about Mei. <3

Mei is listed as a ‘controller’ isn’t she? Three star “difficulty” no less! Well turns out in anything lower than “masters” it is really hard to find a team that actually understands what that means and synergizes accordingly. Examples of what rarely happens: Mates killing your popsicles first (ultimate or primary) or focusing on that lead tank you just cut of from his team with a wall.

So in those lower ranks, and of course not wanting to simply cheat with a bot for your icicles either [yes I see that once a week at least], what CAN you still do for a decent Mei-carry?

Well obviously you can only try your best, according to the situation. A lot of times this might be to protect your backline from those pesky flankers by just slowing them or going for those lucky headshot instakills. At other times you might find a good Hog or Rein with whom you can push and punish everything that gets close very badly. But most of times (in QP and low-rank competitive) you will just be yourself, lone wolfing along a flank to surprise-wall up to a widow (that your team constantly ignores) and freeze her to death. That is just one example of course. More broadly put, one of the most important capabilities of a ‘controller’ is having a very high ‘game sense’. That includes being aware of enemy positions, movements and the level of danger they pose to your own teams current position and composition.

Sadly, at least from my own experience in platinum and below, nobody else seems to be aware of those aspects of the game. Most people seem to think once you have forced 2-2-2 in spawn and if people choose the correct counterpicks in-game, the round is already won. Everything else is surely up to individual skill, especially that of the DPS. Not so! But I digress…

While trying your best as part of a team that is largely not on voice comms and has the game sense of a brick more often than not you will get a surprise yourself. Doesn’t even matter if it is while being the last survivor on a point like Kings Row A or when trying to ‘counter flank’ as Mei in the Anubis tunnel. This isn’t an encounter with that single annoying enemy Tracer (or Genji) either but usually comes in the form of enemies actually communicating and ganging up on you in a group of at least three. ;w;

Now this is where I want my buffs, my sustain as Mei. I am a #$%& defense hero OK? It’s fine if I cannot pull of that multikill all by myself but I need to hold out / stall them until help can arrive. It surely will! Right team? Hello? Oh you have set up at B already? Mhmm thanks *Triggers “Hello” voiceline in iceblock surrounded by six angry attackers*. ;w;

Therefore my ideas. I am not suggesting implementing all of these as it would make Mei OP for sure. But SOME would be nice (TL;DR;):

  • The most obvious. Fix the ultimate in some of these ways:

    • Ultimate disables or severely slows movement abilities from the moment snowball has found his final position.
    • Freeze is much faster (see primary fire suggestion for base-health dependent freeze speed below)
    • Ultimate continues when stunned or killed IF / ONCE snowball has left my hand.
    • Classify snowball as a ‘pet’ rather than projectile so it does not get eaten by DM.
    • Decrease the time it takes from pressing my keybind to people starting to freeze by A LOT. If you have to decrease the AoE to make this seem fair, so be it.
    • Alternatively double the AoE. Means my teammates have to hunt down popsicles all over the map but so be it. At least we would have a use for the SO CUTE “Hey its snowing voiceline” that is already in the game xD
  • Up HP to 300 or add 50 armor (it’s that tough thermo underwear). She is being seen as an off-tank already by many, so why not?

  • Reduce Wall cooldown / add a pilar / make wall unclimbable

  • Give Cryofreeze some kind of effect when it ends/gets canceled that hinders the enemy widows ability to just headshot me on exit. Like a small snow explosion. Mei exiting in a little random direction jump like DV.A does, etc.

  • Remove icicle damage falloff.

  • Improve the primary in at least two of these ways:

    • Make freeze speed depend on targets base health. This would make her a perfect anti-flanker since it would then have a similar effect on Tracer / Genji to e.g. the flashbang. Touch and freeze! Hell yeah stop the mobility craze.
    • Make freeze spray always ‘penetrate’ allowing Mei to freeze many targets at the same time and taking away the annoying ability for enemy teammates to bodyblock. That is anti-tank / deathball meta I guess.
    • Speed up and or increase effective range of freeze ray. Make it more hitscan-like i.e. like Zaryas beam (without changing the visuals ofc).
    • Make freeze either ignore shields or apply a ‘brittle’ effect that makes shields take double damage. Man does Brigitte make Mei impossible to play currently…
    • Make discord (Zen) modify the time it needs to freeze an enemy. It seems the healing orb already NEGATIVELY influences this. :frowning:

Finally, ideas I read here that I do not think Mei needs:

Ammo Reload in CryoFreeze
Ever since the last ‘buff’ I rarely find myself in that “oh nooez I have to reload” situation. It still happens but its way better than before and usually only the case if my position is actually getting overwhelmed. Let the teammates get some kills for a change.

Shorter but stronger CryoFreeze or Shorter CryoFreeze with less cooldown
Hmm no. Talk about Mei feeling oppressive. CryoFreeze has many side-effects you know? Like blocking doorways for enemies, giving shelter to a crouching teammate behind you (like a better Brigitte shield). There are others but my point is that Mei being able to pull off such an ability every few seconds would probably annoy people even more than being executed after a freeze.

Movement modifiers e.g. shooting ground to ice skate
I do not think we need MORE mobility in this game. It’s a fun idea and I come from games where faster movement is king (q3a / ut2004) but it just would not fit well.

Wall aura modifiers e.g. slowdown enemies close to wall
Sounds fun but I would rather have more wall use per minute / extra pillars. Also this is probably something that would require costly engine changes.

Faster icicles, icicles with increased RoF
Please no! I and surely many others have gotten used to the rhythm and speed of the projectiles. Do not make us re-learn how to anticipate a blinking tracer at 20 feet.

I hope I did not forget anything. Oh yeah, before considering touching any of this. PLEASE fix her bugs / QoL issues first:

  • I do NOT want to get hooked out of the ice-block. Same goes for being hacked / charged etc.
  • I do NOT want to be killed by hitscan (projectiles are a different thing) through a wall that is very clearly completely constructed. Either I do not get hit or the wall does not exist. This is especially important since I cannot cancel the wall once dead and it might annoy/hinder teammates. Think about it!
  • Ultimate snowball is NOT supposed to get stuck on the payload or map elements, ever. Just fly higher.
  • Oh and blizzards do NOT work line-of-sight based. Whoever had that silly idea? Please make it a cylinder (not a globe) that extends from snowballs position all the way down under the map. People not affected by it because they are one step of stairs below makes me pull out my hair!
  • One for the team: Let teammates see my wall placement. With option to toggle this off in options.
  • Finally, on occasion I get squishies that do not die when headshot after being frozen. Yes I am close and I did hear the headshot sound-effect. So… uhm… die please. :slight_smile: (No they did not stand on a nano healing field with a zen orb attached.)

Done! Ha they don’t call me the wall-of-text master for nothing.

Have a great day everyone.

P.S.: English isn’t my primary language so excuse any mistakes and me not sounding as elaborate / proficient as I would like :smiley:

2 Likes

MEI BUFF COMING
Come on over here COME ON COWARD, COWARD. I KNOW THAT I WANT TO RIGHT CLICK YOU IN THE NOSE. I’ll freeze your stupid butt. You coward, you think you’re a tough guy, I H A T E YOU, COWARD HahAhaHAhaH. WE’RE GONNA DEFEAT THIS ANTI-HUMAN S C U M, WE’RE GONNA WRECK THEIR WORLD!!!

Ehm, are sure you’re ok? Or is this post-ironic?

I can’t wait to see the new buff on the PTR, i love too much Mei. Do you think freeze multiple peoples with primary firs is too much? For me She needs it

Ever noticed how there is an animation for freezing shields? How about giving that an actual effect?
Maybe after freezing a shield, it will take more damage? or it will be disabled for a few seconds? Or maybe the enemy cant withdraw the shield away for a few seconds?

What are your thoughts?

1 Like

Yeah I noticed that early on. It is included with my suggestions above.

1 Like

Disabling will be kind of too strong for me, but I do just think of a few that could be interesting.

Maybe a frozen shield will slow the movement and turning of the user, or unable to retrieve it. It would only be effective against Rein and Brigitte though(kind of unfair actually)

Or the freeze ray would be able to pierce the barrier if it is frozen. Combined with piercing shot it would shut down Winston big times, but again it kind of hurt Rein a lot too

2 Likes