Let's Revisit the Absurdity of "Hide and Rez"

[Reverendpaqo-1797]

Pretty much you’re getting baited. Tilting you is exactly what is desired.

[Jimin-21586]

Guess I was baited. I’m just sad that I let it go on for this long.

[Megadodo-11847]

@Jimin-21586

@Megadodo-11847

Here’s the original statement I replied to, from Let’s Revisit the Absurdity of “Hide and Rez”

“The strategy would exist so long as Resurrect, as a whole, exists. The only way to get rid of the strategy is to get rid of Resurrect. Now, since we know that they aren’t going to be doing that anytime soon, the next best thing after that is to advocate for a better version of Resurrect. In other words, one that works as an ultimate.”

Both are literally nothing along the lines of what you paraphrased. This is also still proves that you committed a strawman fallacy.

I am certain that I paraphrased correctly.

In any case, that was the statement I originally replied to, and there is nothing that could reasonably be considered a strawman argument in it

@Jimin-21586

@Megadodo-11847

I remain certain that it was more along the lines of a demand than advice

This is called denial. Unfortunately I can’t do nothing about that so I’ll just say, feel free to believe whatever.

I do not see it as denial.

I have read many statements over the course of this discussion, and many of them clearly make demands - do this, do that. Tone is generally difficult to convey in pure text, even with emoticons; but over the course of this discussion it becomes more clear

@Jimin-21586

You quoted something I said and responded to it. Everything in the reply box with my quote in it is directly addressed to me as you are replying to me. Again, you’re in denial. Again, believe whatever.

Factually, there is no denial on my part given that statements made in a public forum are made to the entire readership

@Jimin-21586

@Megadodo-11847

Factually, this discussion was started by the OP.

That said, I do not see any blame in that - starting a post does not bring with it anything I’d refer to as fault, unless the post itself violated the rules of these forums

D E N I A L

I do not see it as a denial, I see it as factual that this discussion was started by the OP, which was not made by either of us

@Jimin-21586

@Megadodo-11847

I personally see rez as an iconic ability of Mercy’s, well balanced in its current configuration.

As such, i do not think it should be removed

I do not care for your opinion. Do not reply to me with your opinions. Thanks in advance.

As I understand them, forum rules do allow me to reply to any post, as long as those replies themselves do not contain violations of forum rules

[Jimin-21586]

Refer to reply 718.

Thanks in advance!

[Needles-11351]

I appreciate it because its pretty fact based. Most people just say they saw it all the time, or saw videos of it. If you read the post he clearly dispells this as every being a statistical problem for the game.

[quiznos-11361]

The OP, presumably.
Or really anyone in the thread throwing numbers around.

There a lot of math dependent commentary here, only begs the question “where are the numbers coming from? Were they checked, or just taken at face value?”

Because, like I see in many threads, people pull numbers off of this site or that site, but more often than not, they are bad sources.

Mostly because we have still yet to see an official API or another official global/regional stat checker.

Aside from evaluating pro-tier data, or your own individual data, there simply isn’t much that can be done for genuinely accurate info.

[Quest-11845]

If you read the post he clearly dispells this as every being a statistical problem for the game.

Using Overbuffs avg healing per 10 minutes to try and calculate how common hide and rez was is pretty flawed. Say Mercy hides for 10s, team dies, they rez them, teams fight it out again. Those 10s would be made up for in essence during that second exchange whereas had that not happened theyd be resetting back in spawn.

All these factors and more aren’t considered. Its misleading. In the end it just addresses a few extreme statements where people would say things like it was every game etc etc which is unrealistic.

In the end I find it all pointless trying to finely determine how common it was. Especially considering only Blizzard has access to the stats necessary to determine that.

[Cleopatra-21937]

Idk, isn’t that a little bit the point of a game like Overwatch? :o

Point of Overwatch is getting objectives completed. It doesn’t specify anything about ways of engaging enemies, or supporting team. So I prefer to heal teammates and not being engaged in firefight myself.

Would probably disagree with Blizzard on lots of things, like making certain strategies “forbidden”, because it’s “unfun” to deal with them. There is nothing said, that enemy have any obligation to be “fun” to deal with. In fact, they are expected to be as “unfun” as possible, by making your victory as hard as they can.

[Reverendpaqo-1797]

On the same thoughts as this, what do people suppose happens when your team ISN’T dying and there are fewer rezes to be had? Mercy gets trash rating even if she is healing every point of damage there is and amping.

The ranking system doesn’t truly and accurately account for all variables equally like the stats on sites don’t. The only way the stats would be accurate was if OW was a death match slugfest, but its just not. Different actions have different value; killing the genji before he blades at the point versus killing genji after he blades and kills half the team on the point makes no difference to the stats, but makes a huge difference in the skillfulness of the play and on the flow of the match.

Mass Rez Mercy played so much more into that idea than Valkyrie Mercy does. Personally thats why I feel Valk is so underwhelming. Not to say neither have their pros or their cons, just the affect it has on the heros kit and play style is so much different.

[Needles-11351]

I agree with this, great point

[Jimin-21586]

If only I didn’t run out of likes.

[Reverendpaqo-1797]

The thing that truly annoys me is people going “now Mercy doesn’t want people to die to pad Rez stats” when in fact she still does because the ranking system still wants to consider that as skillful Mercy play.

It used to be “if you’re going to die, die together so I can bring you all back” until the ranking system perverted it to make it into “please die together so I can get a huge SR boost from rezing”. Now she is just “please die but only 1 every 30 seconds within a safe-ish space.”

Tbh, if they simply removed SR gains from Rez count ENTIRELY, added proper counters to Rez, and openly stated “Rezes get 0 SR return” suddenly its a tool to recover with and not exploit hiding and Rezing for huge SR gains. Suddenly Mercy WANTS to keep people in the match because a Rez gets zero SR where as healing and amping that person does. Even still now, that STILL needs to happen, but with Rez being so slow and punishable and limited in quantity, the problems with it are more back seat now.

[Natorian-1907]

One of your replies posed the question of the game “incentivising” Mercy players to have the “hide and rez” mentality.

Mercy was only incentivised after Blizzard added invulnerability to resurrect. In the individual performance metric, also Blizzard’s faulty system, you were granted attaboy points for having larger resurrects. Because Blizzard had a system in place that incentivised Mercy players to “hide and rez”, where is the liability on the ultimate itself, and not Blizzard’s horrendous balancing?

[Jimin-21586]

I’m saying that so long as Resurrect exists, there is always going to be some sort of incentive to hide.

Mercy was only incentivised after Blizzard added invulnerability to resurrect

Tbh, more like there was more incentive for it. Even without invulnerability, aiming for maximum numerical value is still an incentive. That being said, only focusing on that value is a bad way of playing and can easily lead to defeat.

To summarise the above, after invulnerability, it went from barely anyone hiding as Mercy (but a extremely small number of people still did) to a small group of players hiding. Either way, such a problem can’t be fixed and knowing this, Blizzard should therefore bring back Resurrect as an ultimate since that version of Resurrect didn’t reward hiding as much as current Resurrect does.

[Natorian-1907]

For the most part we agree. Original 1.0 resurrect was only an issue for people who played Mercy. I had 60 hours and my top played hero was Mercy up until Jan of 2017. The forums were not talking about how it undid their 6K PotG. They were talking about how they always died to get off a successful resurrect.

My base point is Blizzard created the problem in the first place. They did far worse a job in decision making then any other Mercy player could.

[Cleopatra-21937]

if I remember correctly, resurrect received no-LoS requirement due to game having glitchy LoS detection back there. It was more noticeable on self-destruct, when you could die behind certain walls, because some walls didn’t count as obstacle for ult.

[Jimin-21586]

My base point is Blizzard created the problem in the first place. They did far worse a job in decision making then any other Mercy player could.

Spill the tea! Expose them! Drag them!

[Natorian-1907]

If it was a beta thing then I would not know. I didn’t start playing until live servers were available. My first game was the day overwatch launched… And I was Mercy.

[Cleopatra-21937]

No, it wasn’t beta. It was at some point after.

[Reverendpaqo-1797]

It was truly awful. That was the main reason I didn’t like the LOS notion with LOS as it was back then. Lamp post stops dvas suicide, but a wall doesn’t.