Kiriko has slowly been nerfed into being nothing but a suzu/ult bot with an abysmal winrate, but I am here as a certified Kiriko hater to offer her fans a little hope.
Think about this. Hog is getting his rework to be less reliant on healing to stay alive. Mauga’s last set of changes show they’re trying to push him away from sustaining off the tank.
It is inevitable at this rate that Kiriko will finally begin to be buffed. Both of the tanks that you desperately wanted to run with Kiriko are being weened off of the Suzu bottle. I predict that in the future we will soon see buffs to the rest of her kit as being a walking Suzu-bot becomes a less viable strategy.
Ana’s probably next on the chopping block. Viable counters to orbital nades (and well timed ones) are becoming scarce, so hopefully a nerf to the anti heal effect will make Kiri less of a force pick into her and let her be her own little terror.
well he isnt saying its just because of cleanse, but.
yesnt, until this season lifeweaver would need to pull the tanks out of position to cleanse/invul, and even now he stills freezes them in pleace when cancelled, since suzu can be thrown, is aoe and the targets can keep moving- its not just the cleanse/invul but how suzu works altogether, if she couldnt use it without risk, for example by only throwing it at her feet, paying the price of being close to the target, it wouldnt get those crazy peaks of value at the highest levels
and if it was based on prediction instead of reaction it would be less frusrating and fair, why i think the cleanse is the issue and not the invul, but that seems to not be the general consensus, regardless if we adressed the things that cleanse was put in the game for directly instead of using a character as a bandaid we would have a better game, so im not against suzu being removed altogether.
Without AOE cleanse things like Illari/Queen ults would have little no real counterplay and would be far more lethal and probably (Just a assumpion as I don’t work at Blizz and is not a game dev) need kit nerfs to account for the ult being so powerful
you could cast suzu before they hit you, how you should use it anyway since its how you get the most value, those ults do a tad of damage when they apply the debuf
(and the only way to stop shatter atm)
mabye so, but then that would make them more fair to characters that dont have cleanse, and being honest, id rather have cleanse on swift step than on suzu XD
They are already in the bottom of popularity lists JQ/Ill barely takes B tier either. What the nerfs when their ults can be deactivated by other ways not only suzu?
And still played in OW world cup.
Kiriko gets stronger with coordination, she is being holds back by Suzu.
If hack is to annoying than we can nerf or kick Suzu
It really is inevitable. I actually think that it’s possible (not likely but possible) she gets a buff with Season 5. Might have to wait until the mid-season though.
I think the issue isn’t with Suzu, but with the absolute multitude and power of debuffs. They are everywhere, and they often affect multiple people at once.
The fact that everyone now has the old DPS passive tied to ALL of their damage means that debuffs are actually flying around much more than they ever have in the entire history of the game.
So they are not only prevalent, but applied almost constantly. Debuffs have become ubiquitous in the game.
So with that, the ability to remove debuffs also becomes more relevant and contextually powerful.
Many heroes have a way to remove their own debuffs, but there are very few ways to remove a debuff from another teammate.
And of the ways to remove a debuff from another teammate, there is only ONE that allows you to hit multiple teammates at once.
Suzu.
The problem isn’t Kiriko. The problem is the game design choice to make tons of debuffs with limited ways to interact with them.
They should IMO. I stand behind what I’ve said about win rates being the most important indicator of hero health. Not the only one. Pick rates matter for hero health (unless the hero is intended to be niche which a few are). But win rates are more important and pick rates mostly are there to contextualize the win rates so we aren’t looking at those in a complete vacuum.
Anyway, many people on the forums only use the win rate data when a hero they don’t like has a high win rate and they completely ignore it when a hero they don’t like has a lower win rate. That’s just not how this works. That’s not how any of this works!
There’s too many factors that influence pickrates that have absolutely nothing to do with power and balance.
Popularity, player perception, even map voting trends.
Winrates tell you how often something actually works.
Cherry picking at its finest.
It’s one of the reasons why I do not feel bad for playing DMon. If Rein can be a big jolly guy with a hammer that everyone loves while we ignore the stats, then DMon can do the same with her sword and MEKA.
Yeah, the only difference here is that D.Mon is doing it in Masters+ and Rein is only doing it below GM (still in Masters though to a degree). Anyway, I do agree for the most part. Last season Rein had like a 56% win rate in Plat and nobody batted an eyelash. D.Mon has a 56% win rate in Plat and the sky is falling. The difference in reaction is hypocritical.
And for the longest time, virtually every character I enjoyed had a very poor winrate.
Now I find one I like that is winning, and suddenly winrates are an issue.
I’m sure DMon will get nerfed. But I’m preparing for the frustration that will come when Rein somehow will not get nerfed despite having similar stats.
Same. I’m used to playing heroes with poor win rates that people complain about being OP anyway despite clear evidence to the contrary. I do expect a D.Mon nerf and frankly I do expect a Kiri buff. If things keep going like they are, maybe even another D.Va buff (just give her back heavy rockets instead of focused fusion or make shield system base kit).
My hope is that the D.Mon nerfs are to the right thing and she gets to keep what makes her her (her Sword and movement). Maybe nerf to her gun major perk. I think that is what is driving win rates at the higher ranks.
It’s not just removing Debuff, Suzu provides full invul and intangibility and removal of debuffs and healing
The Problem is Suzu.
Even the heal debuff which DPS apply is a debuff Suzu removes and can not apply while it lasts. That is not insignificant.
Suzu at higher levels of play is so pivotal that there frequent situations where you cannot use ult to break through a chokepoint because Kiriko with Suzu sits there.
Not gonna lie, I LOVE that gun perk. My perk selection focuses on movement for my minor perk and the gun for the major.
I focus on movement and being able to burst people down from a distance.
I will admit that once I get that major perk for her gun, it feels like DMon becomes much more dangerous. I can create space better and force people out of LOS to increase my own survivability.
It helps me duel other tanks since I can jet backwards, pop shield to eat their attacks if needed, and pop them in the face with my gun as I retreat.
And if you get a headshot or two on someone, it opens them up for a quick zip in to finish them with melee.
I find that if I’m playing against a DMon mirror, they are much easier to beat if they pick the melee perks. But I’m not sure if it’s just the perks meshing better with my playstyle or that style being objectively OP.
The sword nerf did little to stop me from playing her the way I want. And the faster deployment of her barrier really helped me get in and out better.
Kiri and by extension Suzu, really need high levels of coordination and low levels of network latency.
She’s perfect for pro level play, but struggles on ladder for a reason.
My point is that there’s a ton of debuffs and not a lot of ways to interact with them.
If Kiri didn’t have the only way to remove debuffs from multiple people at once, we might see other supports getting played more.
Man she Juuust got nerfed… XD
JQ/Ill barely takes B tier either. What the nerfs when their ults can be deactivated by other ways not only suzu?