Nobody said that.
There are real threats in Arcade (Deathmatch or any other mode).
If - and only if - you practice teamplay, which includes picking your teamcomp.
When you only want to practice mechanical skills you don’t need a team neither the “full scope of the game”.
When you want to practice more than mechanical skills and want a “real scenario” then you gotta play for real and pick for real.
There is no such thing as practice in a real scenario without you working with your team. It’s a very poor excuse to allegedly strive for a real scenario and then not care about your team.
“Easily verified” means it is easy to acquire evidence to support or disprove an offence.
No you cannot. You can insist that you were falsely reported but the GM isn’t going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Players in Competitive (and any other mode) should not be punished unless there is recorded evidence to support the punishment. This does not require “algorithms”; chat logs are sufficient for abusive chat and a recording of the game would be enough for poor teamwork.
How can you be a poor teammate without a team? We both agreed that teams are based on mutual respect; without reciprocity there is no team.
There are different degrees of trying to win and different perspectives of what it takes. Theirs may simply disagree with yours.
I’m afraid I don’t quite understand your point. Are you trying to argue that all one-tricks have been justifiably banned or are you making the claim that because the system works in specific cases it must work in all cases? The former contradicts Blizzard, the latter is not a logical argument.
The reply of yours that prompted my remark seemed to miss the point of my post in a way that implied that the material you quoted was my whole argument. I was concerned that we might each end up arguing against positions the other does not hold.
I can choose which character I pick. If I don’t want to be reported, on the other hand, my choices are limited to the characters my teammates approve of. A choice under duress isn’t actually a choice.
My opinion on your questions:
Yes to everything before “because”. “Please don’t impute motives” to the rest.
No, it’s a reasonable assumption given the current state of Quick Play.
Simple. If you report every other member of your team for poor teamwork (not working with their teammates), you couldn’t have been working with any of them and were therefore a poor teammate. “They aren’t working with me” is a less self-aware version of “I’m not working with them”.
True, but it changes the ability to identify and punish abuse. Evidence of Abusive Chat is easier to store and inspect than poor teamwork.
My apologies for cutting down what I responded to. I was a bit worried we were getting distracted in a thousand little arguments.
To summarise my argument: punishing players for poor teamwork in Quick Play is impractical without enabling abuse, empowers toxic players to hold their teammates to a higher standard than themselves, and forces the appearance of teamwork while destroying the spirit of teamwork.
A) violations that can be detected/evaluated by algorithm (don’t need a report system for that, because why report if the algorithm already detects it)
B) violations that can NOT be detected/evaluated by algorithm (definitely need a report system for that)
Poor teamwork falls into the B-category and I think we concluded we cannot have a human oversee everything that’s reported, because:
That kind of eliminates the option of having recordings as evidence for the B-category, doesn’t it?
What would we need or require evidence for if nobody can handle reviewing the evidence anyways?
So I guess the modified question is:
Should people in Competitive remain unpunished for poor teamwork (or whatever detrimental behavior you can imagine) just because it is not feasible to implement an evidence review process?
We have to differenciate here between “without 5 other players” and “with 5 other players that don’t all practice good teamwork”. Of course you can’t be a poor teammate when there are no players in your team (e.g. FFA modes in Arcade). However, you can be a poor teammate when there are 1-5 other poor teammates in your team.
You see, the problem with acquitting anyone of the onus of teamwork is that every time someone thinks they are acquitted because of 1-5 people in their team there’s gonna be less teamwork than before. It quickly becomes an awkward race to the bottom as soon as one teammember starts throwing because they think they earned the right to do so.
Following the statement that “the onus of teamplay is certainly not one-sided! When teamplay and reports can be one-sided that doesn’t mean that one person forces everyone else to accomodate them. EVERYBODY should accomodate EVERYBODY.”, nobody should EVER be acquitted of the onus of teamwork.
Nobody is ever safe from being considered a poor teammate just because what the rest of their team does.
Sure. But this is how you can tell if their unbeneficial actions were simply due to a misplay or due to their perspective/concious decision/call it whatever, that their degree of trying to win leans towards “I don’t care nor want to win”. Which is a sign of disrespect in a teambased game mode.
I’m arguing that no one-tricks have been banned falsely because of poor teamwork and thus the system apparently works in the case of reporting poor teamwork, so we shouldn’t meet trouble halfway.
There’s nothing that suggests that the system must work in all cases.
Empirically we can see that it does work in the case of reporting poor teamwork in Competitive.
So there’s nothing that suggests that the system can’t work in the case of extending the community norms to also cover reporting poor teamwork in QP.
Well, you can’t have/support both, teamwork AND 100% free choice. That’s impossible.
The onus of teamwork literally means to limit your choices voluntarily to the choices that are beneficial to your team because of respect. So you’re gonna end up at less than 100% freedom of choice.
I get that this can feel like duress at times. But if we agree that everybody has the onus of teamwork, I’m afraid that is unavoidable.
However this doesn’t take away the choices you still have. Nor does it acquit you from the responsibility for your own choices.
I don’t think status quo should be a justification for poor behavior/teamwork (or a justification for the assumptions leading to poor behavior).
How are you becoming a poor teammate if you offer do everything to adjust to your team but they just ignore your efforts and don’t adjust themselves?
A simple teamcomp example: 5 dps have been picked. I can’t heal AND tank both at the same time, so I pick one of them.
And possibly even all 5 dps thought to themselves: “since nobody dares to pick a second non-dps, this team is lost anyways and thus I am acquitted of the onus of teamwork”. And there the race to the bottom began. With one player still willing and trying to teamwork, however unable to succeed doing so because his help is just turned down.
You can’t seriously be accusing this player of being a poor teammate who is just not self-aware.
Not saying that these self-unaware non-teamplayers don’t exist. But projecting that to everybody who intends to report someone for poor teamplay is - quite frankly - ridiculous.
To summarize my response:
We need a report system. Unfortunately, this has - just by existence - the side effect of enabling abuse.
Punishing players for poor teamwork in Competitive seems to be practical even with the abuse that comes with it.
There’s nothing that suggests extending the community norm to cover QP will be impractical all of the sudden.
Toxic players are a problem and a report system just by existence enables them to hold their teammates to a higher standard than themselves, no matter what the community norms on reporting poor teamwork specifically in QP are.
Toxic players can also be tackled by the very same report system.
I have no idea how that whole thing would destroy the spirit of teamwork, rather than making people more aware that teamwork is important and desirable.
If it’s just QP and team composition, trying to do the objective and actually winning doesn’t matter, why do people assume I’m throwing when I build my turret in spawn room and go 1v1 with enemy Hanzo? I’m just doing my best! Why people report me when I wall them in spawn? We’re jut having fun here, right? You have fun by trying to practice Widow against Winston and D.va while your team has no tanks\supports, and I have fun by building teleporters that lead into pits.
Thank you, Overwatch team. This may yet be the nudge needed to encourage teemwark. It’s the sort of non-punitive system of “punishment” I was looking for when originally posting this discussion. Reporting was not so great since it’s common to end up in sequential games with the reported player.
Excerpt from the [Overwatch PTR Patch Notes – March 24, 2018]:
You’ve misunderstood my point. Most violations can’t be detected by algorithm but this does not mean that evidence backing them up cannot be recorded. The report system works in its current form if evidence of an offence is recorded. I don’t think players should be punished without a GM reviewing the evidence but the ability to have your appeal judged with supporting evidence works for our purposes.
Yes. Very few players actually deserve to be reported. Even if you have a small false-positive rate, false-positives will end up as a significant proportion of players punished.
What if you have the team I mentioned earlier, 6 DPS, all of whom are perfectly happy to keep playing DPS but two of whom want the others to switch? The four who are satisfied are perfectly good teammates but they would be the ones reported.
I see imputing motives to someone you disagree with to be a sign of disrespect. Assuming that your view of trying to win is more correct than theirs is also disrespectful. I suppose we might just be a bit sensitive.
Which of the following do you mean?
While the one-tricks were banned falsely, they were reported for being one-tricks and not for poor teamwork
They were falsely banned but were poor teammates
They were not banned falsely
You can. I’m happy to work with others but I don’t require them to work with me. I just don’t think those who want to force others to work with them should be able to. Teamwork and 100% freedom of choice.
Are you responding to what I’ve written or to something you thought I wrote?
Teamwork is not about optimal team composition. It is being willing to compromise with what the team wants to do. In your example the team could communicate and work out a more optimal composition if they were so inclined but they are clearly unwilling to do so. They has compromised on a 5 DPS comp.
The dissenting player is not a poor teammate until they report the others. If you have a meta composition that the other five members of your team are satisfied with and you report them for not being willing to try your Torbjorn/Brigitte/Symmetra dream comp I would call you a poor teammate. Why should it be different for a 5 or 6 DPS comp?
Poor teamwork is not reportable in Competitive. Poor Teamwork is (soon to be was) a report option, but it doesn’t actually cover poor teamwork. The system has been abused every time a player was punished for poor teamwork in Competitive.
I know. I’m afraid you didn’t notice I covered recorded evidence in the following statements?
So since a review process is not feasible, that means no player should be punished at all?
That means toxic players, cheaters, griefers, etc… will have free rein to do their stuff as well?
That seems like an unfounded guess out of the blue.
I think we already concluded that there can always be false reports in a reporting system. This is possible for all the reporting options.
I hope you are not implying that they are perfectly good teammates (only) because they are perfectly happy to keep playing what they are playing but because of how they accomodate to their teammates.
I also don’t know who (other than Toxic players who also can be reported for their toxicity) would want their 4 DPS teammates to switch if the comp is perfectly working out.
It’s not like people want DPS players to switch just for the sake of it. It’s rather that they want people to adjust to the situation if the comp doesn’t work out.
And IF the 6 dps is struggling against the enemy and IF it’s blatantly clear that 2-3 non-dps would help the team better, I don’t really see how it’s considered good teamwork to NOT make adjustments. Being satisfied and happy to keep playing your initial pick is not a proof of teamwork (not saying that it is a proof of poor teamwork if you still manage to synergize with your team).
You can’t justify misplays by “I don’t need to try” if you yourself want to try. It is a clear display of perspective. I don’t need to impute anything here.
About my view being more “correct”: You answered yes to both these questions: Isn’t it a sign of respect/teamwork to choose heros based on what your team composition looks like?
Isn’t it a sign of disrespect/poor teamwork to just pick whatever?
Assuming respect is one of the most important things I think we can safely assume that a perspective contradicting these two questions is actually less “correct”. And even when we acknowledge that each opinion we disagree with is also a valid opinion, I think we should not canonize those displaying disrespect for the sake of “freedom of opinion and everything”.
I don’t want to tolerate their behavior. Not because I disagree but because it’s disrespectful.
The use of false “poor teamwork” reports was not the reason for the ban of any one-trick that displayed good teamwork. If a one-trick has been banned then because of other reasons (or maybe because they actually displayed bad teamwork). But not just because they one-trick. At least not that I know of.
And how can you consider it good teamwork (or teamwork at all) if they don’t work with you?
I would like them to work with their team voluntarily. And I think it’s pretty sad that we need to talk about the question if you need to force others to teamwork in a teamgame because I consider it a sign of disrespect when people play a teamgame without working with their team.
You tell me?
You call an assumption that leads to poor teamwork “reasonable” because it reflects status quo and thereby seem to try to justify that assumption with status quo.
Is that what you actually said?
Team composition is a part of teamwork. And I thought you agreed when you said yes to the question if it’s a sign of respect to pick according to your team and a sign if disrespect to pick whatever.
How can it be teamwork when they are “clearly unwilling” to work out a more optimal composition and thereby unwilling to compromise?
Reporting does not turn you into a poor teammate.
In your example the player is not a poor teamplayer because he reports the others but because he is not willing to do compromises himself (if I got your example right).
A player who IS willing to do compromises himself, however one or multiple teammates of him are not, does not turn into a bad teamplayer as soon as he reports the very teammates that are unwilling to compromise.
One example showing a bad teamplayer reporting his teammates doesn’t prove that reporting “poor teamwork” is bad teamwork. Neither does it prove that the reported persons are working with their team.
What does it cover in your opinion if not poor teamwork?
When I encounter a team who isn’t really trying and I’m Mercy then I usually go battle Mercy to practice my aim. I’ll resurrect players but most of my focus will be on damaging or killing my opponents. “It’s just quick play” works both ways, if that’s what my team wants.
I had a team of five DPS yesterday, but after the first point was lost quickly then they decided to switch to at least have another tank at which point I started healing instead. If a team shows they are trying and won’t pick a ridiculously unlikely to win composition then I’ll happily start healing everyone, otherwise I won’t waste my time on it in quick play and will just practice my aim in the meantime.
“widow, can you take out the other widow?” “relax dude, its qp, I am not even trying.” (exact words from a game yesterday) I dont get this mentality, why even play the game if you are not gonna try?? That lack of motivation is completely foreign to me; IDC if it’s qp. The literal objective of the game is to win. That is the job you take on in choosing to play. Either fulfill the games purpose and do everything you can to win or don’t play. It’s like sitting down with someone and playing a game of Chess and they decide not to try. Like, why waste my time and play if you aren’t gonna try…it’s extremely rude and infuriating.
So your frustration is people playing badly? That’s hardly something you or anybody could fix.
You said, and I quote
If you want people that try their hardest to win against people close to your skill level, then go to comp. You don’t have to play comp for the rank. Some just prefer comp over QP (like me).
You can solo queue if you want as well, you might not have the same level of coordination than a pre-stack, but you can still try.
Quick Play is suppose to be a queue for people that just want to hop into a game and not be burdened by people screaming at them to swap or to get a chance to play their favorite hero that they might not get to play in comp. No, it isn’t just practice for comp. You can use it that way, but it’s suppose to be a casual queue where team comp isn’t everything and you can play what you want.
OP is talking about people building crappy team comps and how people play stupid and brush it off because “it’s just qp”
I want to always have a fair match with people who try, even in quickplay, and part of trying is building a decent team composition. I don’t want to have to go to comp where there is a ranking to have people who want to build a decent team composition lmao. I have my reasons for that but I don’t need to have an explanation. Why is it wrong to want people to try to win in quickplay by building a decent comp and not going 5 DPS with 1 healer lmao.
btw I never said it was practice for comp. I don’t know how or where you got that idea from.
What the people you say “it’s just QP” are trying to tell you is that you shouldn’t get so worked up about losing the game, because you don’t get punished for losing in QP. Sure it might feel bad to lose, but to try to order aound other players like it’s a competitve match in a casual queue, most will ignore you, or they’ll mess with you like me and my friends do sometimes.
Example “Can you guys stop throwing we need more healing”
“Got it man, (Swaps to 5 supports) WE NEED MORE HEALING GUYS”
You can’t force people to play a certain comp. You can encourage it, which the game already does.
You gotta learn to just roll with it man. Some of the most fun games I’ve had is where we go Torb Sym Bastion on attack and make the payload a tank.
And I was simply just refering in general to the idea of QP being practice for comp. Not to you actually saying (which I know you didn’t).
There is “It’s just qp” as in “I want to play the hero that I want to play and I won’t fret about playing perfectly, and I want to try to win my way but it’s okay if I don’t, relax” and then there is the situation you are describing, which is kind of extreme. I’m sorry that you stumbled upon this and I understand your frustration. The people (most of us I think?) who defend the “It’s just qp” mentality DO NOT endorse this kind of behavior. You are right in that you shouldn’t play if you don’t have the motivation to try.