🙄 It's ironic

[Ijekiel-2635]

it doesn’t have to be a team kill for mercy to get 2-3 man rez.

Even if it is a team kill she could’ve been hiding or walking from spawn from being killed first.

Wiping a team usually requires a lot of rescues. Undoing all that with one of the “cheapest” ultimate with no cast time is not even remotely balanced.

Why is it that whenever you bring this argument up and others remind you that it can easily be negated after the Res is activated, you never reply? Again, if the fact that it was unstoppable made her broken, every other hero with no cast time would be unstoppable. Of course, that isn’t the case… And again, she was underpowered with mass Res and had to get multiple buffs to make her more viable. Even after these buffs, she was still C-tier.

[sashimi-21153]

the primary reason the ult got reworked/changed was because it encouraged hide and rez… y’know that right? and double instant rez was broken, if you mean moth mercy.

[anon23134087]

I haven’t responded to your previous reply becuase i had like 10 others spamming me with “in what world killing 5 people with a press of a button balanced”.

remind you that it can easily be negated after the Res is activated, you never reply?

By negated do you mean kill the enemy team all over or am i missing something? Legit don’t understand your point here.

Even after these buffs, she was still C-tier.

She was not a c-tier. At least not for 80% of the time she had the mass rez.

[FulMtlPopins-1938]

And Mei wall encourages trolls, there’s a report button for that sort of behavior. PotG isn’t as big a deal as it used to be, and I don’t think hiding and saving mass rez to get PotG would be as big of an issue now, but mkay. Personally I never saw this very much back when mass rez was a thing, and Blizz’s mutilation of Mercy for 2 straight years made it feel VERY MUCH like a personal issue the dev’s had with her.

[sashimi-21153]

Mei wall is reportable, hide and rez was not. that’s bad example.
"So one of the problems we see with Mercy right now is there’s a weird behavior that’s encouraged by the core, fundamental design of the hero, which is that, if you are a Mercy player and you are healing you’re team and your ultimate is up or close to being up, you have this weird moment where you stop healing your team, you go into hiding, and you start to tell your teamL “Everybody die together! Die on the point. Die on the point, I have Rez.” - jeff.

hide and rez happened enough for it to be noticed and frowned on.

[Ijekiel-2635]

@anon23134087

I haven’t responded to your previous reply becuase i had like 10 others spamming me with “in what world killing 5 people with a press of a button balanced”.

Okay, understandable.

@anon23134087

By negated do you mean kill the enemy team all over or am i missing something? Legit don’t understand your point here.

I’m saying, if the Mercy is hiding or is running from spawn, you have a clear advantage and would need to use minimal resources to win the fight. When the Mercy resses, it should be a free win because you have ultimates, the first strike and the ability to move and reposition yourself whilst those ressed get fixed in place.

If the Mercy isn’t hiding, it begs the question, why would you not focus down the main healer and focus on the rest of her team?

A better explanation:

@Titanium-1686

Moving onto “Hide and rez” …

“We think it’s wrong to tell a main-healing character to go off and hide somewhere and stop healing for some period of time.”

But it is fine for a main-damage character to go off and hide somewhere and stop dealing damage for some period of time, like many heroes currently do in preparation for an ultimate?

In actuality, you are right; just not for the reason you think you are. You are correct because hiding was maladaptive for the team’s chance of victory, and therefore was a bad way to play her. Allow me to explain this in an even more elaborate manner than my past few megaposts.

The success of a mass-Resurrection (4+ revived players) depended upon several factors:

• The Mercy’s ability to survive and execute the ability in the first place (the obvious one).
• The number of players alive on each team after the Resurrection.
• The number of available ultimates held by each team after the Resurrection (but primarily the enemy team).
• The shock value of Resurrect against the enemy (by far the most important factor for the post-rez fight).

The last factor is more important than the other two post-rez factors because it determines what other factors need to advantage the Mercy in order to have a good chance at a successful Resurrection. As the enemy team is given time to reorganize and fire their first attacks at the newly Resurrected team, they would already have a positioning advantage and the first shot… that is, if the team was expecting the Resurrection.

If the enemy team is expecting the Resurrection, they will have the post-rez advantages of the first shot and additional positioning time. Of course, this is a very bad situation to be in for the newly revived team, requiring some very strong advantages of their own to compensate and have a chance at winning the fight. In this case, they would need both the numbers advantage and the ultimate ability advantage.

If the enemy team isn’t expecting the Resurrection, then the Mercy could probably get by with either the numbers advantage or the ultimate advantage and still have a chance at winning, as the enemy team might not capitalize on their positioning and first shot opportunities as well as they should due to the shock value of Resurrect.

How does “Hide and rez” fit into all of this, you might ask? Hiding before the fight removes the possibility of having enough of those advantages against the enemy team in the post-rez fight, and therefore any chance of a victorious post-rez fight against any team of similar skill.

Hiding leaves the initial fight to a 5v6, the missing hero on the Mercy’s team being the main healer and primary source of sustain. Obviously, this is a huge advantage for the team of 6 in the first fight, allowing them to steamroll over Mercy’s team with likely zero casualties, and ultimate expenditures used only to counter any of the opposition’s ultimates. On top of this, the team of 6 also now collectively has 2000-3000 more ultimate charge from killing 5 players in addition to any healing dealt over the duration of that fight. Thus, it hands the ultimate ability advantage to the team opposing the Mercy.

The opposing team, assuming they are paying even the slightest attention to what is happening around them, would notice that the enemy is crumbling very easily for a supposed 6v6, raising suspicions as to whether or not the fight really is a 6v6, quickly leading to the realization that the enemy Mercy is missing from the fight. From this, only one conclusion could logically be drawn; she’s waiting to use Resurrect. There goes the ultimate’s shock value.

At this point, even if the team of 6 somehow managed to sustain 2 casualties in the initial fight, it won’t matter. If both teams entered the fight with the same number of ultimates, the team that does not have the hiding Mercy has at least two more ultimates than the other team (2000+ ultimate charge, Mercy’s team used Resurrect). One or two offensive ultimates is the absolute maximum a team needs to wipe a freshly-revived team when they are expecting the Resurrection, resulting in the revived team staring down the barrel of a gun they have no chance of avoiding.

In contrast, a Mercy who stays with her team keeps the fight at a 6v6, granting her team more sustain and forcing the enemy to expend ultimates to overpower them. Once the ultimates started firing, the mercy would distance themselves from the fight, evade, or take cover, laying down pistol fire or amplifying damage rather than attempting to heal those for whom healing would be useless. As a result, the enemy was less likely to realize that Mercy has Resurrect (the enemy was comparatively difficult to kill, removing the prompt to think about why they were crumbling easily in the first place), Mercy’s team was more likely to pick off a few enemies, and Mercy has successfully baited more ultimates from the enemy team. As a result, her team has more advantages and fewer disadvantages in the post-rez fight.

The only cost to staying with the team was an increased chance of being picked off before being able to revive the team, which just follows the same risk choice explained in the Resurrect section; if taking more controllable risks now helps to mitigate the high risk later, then taking those smaller risks now is safer than not in the long run.

Consequently, reviving a team after hiding typically resulted in a second wipe, while staying with the team until it was unsafe to do so was more likely to yield favorable results. That is why it was “wrong to tell a main-healing character to go off and hide somewhere” . It was a bad tactic, as it usually backfired.

Rather than letting the issue resolve itself by fixing the SR exploit that ultimately led to the tactic’s rise in the first place, the developers decided to remove Resurrect as an ultimate entirely. They changed the thing that wasn’t the problem, and ended up pissing off the playerbase.

Sound familiar?

Anyway, I’ve used this example many times before, but removing Resurrect as an ultimate because some players abandoned their team leading to a second wipe is equivalent to removing Rocket Barrage as an ultimate because Pharah players too often blew themselves up with it. There’s no need to intervene; the tactic will die out on its own, so long as the ranking system isn’t feeding it.

Ironically, the rework ended up only replacing one tactic of hiding with another. This time, however, the is no drawback to it, making the tactic beneficial. Valkyrie is best used by pressing Q and then flying the hell away, barely staying within beam range of the team. Doing this minimizes risk, but compromises no rewards. A Mercy playing closer to her team in Valkyrie is not helping her team any more than a Mercy 29 meters from her team, and is only exposing herself to enemy fire. Consequently, staying as far as possible from the fight for Valkyrie’s full duration is the way to go.

@anon23134087

She was not a c-tier. At least not for 80% of the time she had the mass rez.

Yeah because before any sort of buff, she was trash tier.

[FulMtlPopins-1938]

Oh, I’m aware of what he said about Mass Rez It got straight up removed, instead of trying to rework it, it was scrapped and replaced, because somebody had mad beef with Mercy, and then even after her “rework” she was changed almost beyond recognition FOR TWO YEARS, they nerfed her over and over and over again, even after Mass Rez was gone, so don’t tell me it was just a “hide and rez” thing, it was a “somebody has a huge problem with Mercy, period” thing.

[Ijekiel-2635]

so don’t tell me it was just a “hide and rez” thing

This seems even more likely when you consider the fact that all they did was replace one form of hiding with another.

[sashimi-21153]

Hide and rez was the core reason mass rez got removed, don’t forget. I also believe they should’ve experimented a little before rapidly removing the ultimate.

Also it was understandable why she got bunch of nerfs after the “ultimate removal”. it created moth meta/mercy. it was “a mercy on the team or loss.” some of the changes after were justified.

[anon23134087]

I’m saying, if the Mercy is hiding or is running from spawn, you have a clear advantage and would need to use minimal resources to win the fight.

While you have the advantage when going 5v6 it’s far from a guaranteed win. A lot of the times an ult or two were used by the team without the mercy to secure the fight. Not only that but, by the end of the fight(if the match wasnt a 1 sided stomp that is) some of the enemies were for sure injured and a couple might be dead.

Basically, there was a high chance that when you resed the enemy would have been weakened and if your team haven’t burnt all of their ults doing the fight(which would’ve been a mistake in most cases) you would’ve had an easy win.

If the Mercy isn’t hiding, it begs the question, why would you not focus down the main healer and focus on the rest of her team?

Killing the main healer is a good idea, but it’s not always as easy as it sounds. Depending on the team and the map Mercy could have prenty of possibilities to kite the enemy or get saved( for example pre nerf martix was pretty good at that).

You could argue that at most ranks peeling for healers wasn’t a thing, but neither were coordinated atacks on main healers tbh.

Yeah because before any sort of buff, she was trash tier.

Well, considering she was the only main healer before ana got added to the game and picked in almost every match, I kinda doubt that. She had her problems, but she was far from being a trash pick.

[Ijekiel-2635]

While you have the advantage when going 5v6 it’s far from a guaranteed win

I think I’ve already covered this…

A lot of the times an ult or two were used by the team without the mercy to secure the fight

Wait? So an enemy would use ultimates in a 6v5 when the Mercy is hiding? Just why? That alone is bad gameplay but let’s just say it happened. With the first fight, they can just build up there other ultimates again as they are winning the first fight. After all, we’re looking at atleast 2000-3000 ultimate charge available to be gained. In almost every situation, unless you and your team are potatoed, you’re going to have the ultimate advantage against the enemy Mercy’s team.

Not only that but, by the end of the fight(if the match wasnt a 1 sided stomp that is) some of the enemies were for sure injured and a couple might be dead.

Adding on the what I previously said, if you wipe the enemy in the first fight, you’re going to notice that the Mercy is not there (you really should’ve noticed before but whatever). With that in mind, the ultimate shock is also gone meaning your mind and the rest of your team is going to be ready for the Res. This coupled with everything else mentioned, would make sort of pick insignificant (then again, getting picked in a 6v5 is very questionable unless the Mercy’s team didn’t use ultimates which again, if they did, would give you the ult advantage). All it takes is a 2 offensive ultimates on your side to win the fight if you’re down 1-2 teammates.

Basically, there was a high chance that when you resed the enemy would have been weakened

If they got that weakened to point where they lose a couple of teammates, use a bunch of ultimates and don’t force the enemy to use any of their ultimates, we really then would have to bring up their skill because that’s a lot of stuff to mess up in one fight.

and if your team haven’t burnt all of their ults doing the fight(which would’ve been a mistake in most cases) you would’ve had an easy win.

Like I’ve said, the opposition against the hiding Mercy would still have the ult advantage, coupled with the other advantages such as positioning and first strike. I’d recommend reading the “Better explanation” subheading in my reply. It really does explain hiding and how it’s bad in good detail.

Killing the main healer is a good idea, but it’s not always as easy as it sounds. Depending on the team and the map Mercy could have prenty of possibilities to kite the enemy or get saved( for example pre nerf martix was pretty good at that).

So then, the Mercy managed to survive during the fight and pulled of the res, cuz that’s what you seem to be describing. In that case, the Mercy deserved the res. This is the same for every other hero. If you don’t want them to use their ultimate to save their team, you have to kill them before or counter ult them.

You could argue that at most ranks peeling for healers wasn’t a thing, but neither were coordinated atacks on main healers tbh.

Sounds like a skill issue rather than a Mercy issue tbh.

Well, considering she was the only main healer before ana got added to the game and picked in almost every match, I kinda doubt that.

That’s because Lúcio Zen synergies were widely used and Ana was way better. That being said, the buffs I’m referring to are more to do with Resurrect. In the developer comments for the buff in question, they acknowledged that Mercy’s kept dying after ressing which basically lost that fight regardless of the fact that the res was executed.

I kinda doubt that. She had her problems, but she was far from being a trash pick.

Meanwhile, I still remember “Can you swap to Ana, Lúcio or Zen”. Then there’s the fact that she was almost never used in pro play and finally, again, the devs acknowledged how crap Mass Res was.

[Wrong-22443]

In what world is killing 5 people with the press of a button balanced?

There’s not a single button in the game that does this reliably with no option of counterplay.

Mercy’s mass ress could consistently ress at least 3-4 people sometimes even your entire team.

It was taken away because you could quite literally trade 1 ult for 2-3 of the enemy team’s ults.

Rewarding people for dying is sh!t design.

[Natorian-1907]

Basically, there was a high chance that when you resed the enemy would have been weakened and if your team haven’t burnt all of their ults doing the fight(which would’ve been a mistake in most cases) you would’ve had an easy win.

After reading everything in this thread you have written my conclusion is this.

“ALL damage dealer ultimate’s require more the just a single button press. Every single time they are used 100% of the time.”

Skreaw -paraphrased-

“Mercy can get a 5 player resurrection every single time she is on the field, regardless of what everyone else is doing or who they are playing.”

Skreaw -paraphrased-

Are you even remotley aware that for Mercy to resurrect an entire team, they all must be dead. You speak fervently about how each damage dealer has to have, without fail, help to secure their ultimate. Which is false by the way. Somehow though Mercy just gets 5 person resurrects every single team fight.

This is the same argument each and every time from someone who, simply put, couldn’t play against Mass Resurrect. It wasn’t a Mercy problem it was a YOU a problem.

[FulMtlPopins-1938]

It needed a rework, rather than a complete removal, and it rewards the Mercy for not dying, and punishes DPS or anyone else that can’t kill a Mercy before she gets the rez off. Stop swearing, btw, even obscured it’s still against forums ToS.

[Needles-11351]

In what world is a dps killing 5 people with a press of a button balanced?

[anon23134087]

ALL damage dealer ultimate’s require more the just a single button press

How is that wrong?

Mercy can get a 5 player resurrection every single time she is on the field, regardless of what everyone else is doing or who they are playing

Never said that she she got a 5 man res every time, but they were a thing and not a perticularly rare.

You speak fervently about how each damage dealer has to have, without fail, help to secure their ultimate. Which is false by the way. Somehow though Mercy just gets 5 person resurrects every single team fight.

Again, how is “dps dps can’t get a 5k by simply pressing a button” false?

This is the same argument each and every time from someone who, simply put, couldn’t play against Mass Resurrect. It wasn’t a Mercy problem it was a YOU a problem.

This has nothing to do with the inability to play against mercy. It’s about the fairnes of the ability. Typical argument from someone who can’t even explain his pow, just call someone else bad.

In what world is a dps killing 5 people with a press of a button balanced?

In the same world where Needles learns to read past the first 3 responses to the post.

…

It’s 4 am so i’ll write an asnwer tommorow.

[Ijekiel-2635]

There’s not a single button in the game that does this reliably with no option of counterplay.

Mercy’s Mass Res does have counterplay though… Counterplay isn’t just the ability to kill her to cancel her ultimate. It can also be what you do proceeding the fight. Otherwise, I could just go around saying Zen’s transcendence has no counterplay because it literally can’t be cancelled either.

Rewarding people for dying is sh!t design.

That isn’t an issue with mass Resurrect. That’s an issue with Resurrect in general.

[Ijekiel-2635]

Mercy’s mass ress could consistently ress at least 3-4 people sometimes even your entire team.

If the Mercy didn’t hide, it means you didn’t kill the Mercy. If you don’t kill the enemy main healer, you won’t get too far in terms of climbing up ranks. That and, you’re acting as if getting 3-4 man resses were a breeze when the reality is, most will not just die in a pile next to each other and most will not just all die at the same time. They’ll likely get staggered deaths which makes it exponentially harder to Res them all. Then there’s the simple fact that tempo ressing was easier to do as it involved doing nothing to change your gameplay but rather, just stay alive.

Edit: Also forgot to mention, and this is more related to “Hide n Res, most of the time Mercies fly to their dead teammates to Res and then try to reposition themselves to get as many people ressed as possible. This time window gives the enemy one of the best opportunities to kill the Mercy and win that fight easily. Yes, the Mercy will still have her ult but you have your ults from the fight you just won and if you could easily do what you did previously to either come up with the same result or the Mercy will just Res less people.

[Titanium-1686]

I’m in a bit of a habit of lurking around the forum just for the fun of it, but I’ve been referenced 4 times in this thread, and some statements just stick out at me. There are some assertions on these forums that illustrate a complete and utter absence of knowledge on a subject in which the speaker is trying to appear knowledgeable or well-versed.

Well, considering she was the only main healer before ana got added to the game and picked in almost every match, I kinda doubt that. She had her problems, but she was far from being a trash pick.

This is one of those assertions.

Mercy always was popular, prior to her rework anyway, but the story of her actual viability is a completely different tale.

So Mercy was meta for a little bit prior to Ana’s introduction…
https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2016-07-21-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-the-eve-of-ana

But spoiler alert: That’s the last time she’ll ever be meta until her rework.

The patch introducing Ana hits, and we get… a Lucio/Zenyatta support meta:
https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2016-08-04-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-zenyattawatch

And from here on out, Mercy never breaks D-Tier (or Tier 4).

Ana gets buffed, and Season 2 becomes the Deathball/Beyblade Meta, in which the optimal supports are Ana and Lucio.

Season 3 is dominated by the infamous Triple-Tank Meta, in which the lead supports were once again Ana and Lucio. What’s happening to Mercy at this time? The pros and high-tier ladder won’t touch her. She’s F-Tier; a “troll-pick”, if you will. Yet, she somehow has an 11% pickrate in both Quickplay and Competitive play. This is the highest pickrate in the game overall, but she is literally dead last of the healers when looking at Diamond+ pickrates.

Season 4 hits, and we get a bit of a shake-up with significant nerfs to Ana and D.Va, ending the Triple-Tank Meta. Mercy receives her invulnerability buff, which launches her all the way from F-Tier to…

…D-Tier.

There is never really a solidified Meta in season 4; it’s a “fluid Meta”. Mercy’s overall pickrate rises to 12% in Quickplay and around 13% in Competitive (14% on a good day). Yet, she still falls behind every other healer in high ranks.

Fast forward to season 5, and we begin to see the Mercy complaints. People begin proclaiming her overpowered, when the last change to her occurred three months prior. The Dive Meta has taken over, which heavily favors mobility. Can you guess who the meta supports were?

Lucio and Zenyatta.

https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2017-08-30-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-and-the-gunslinger-followed

Look at that; Ana is still in a higher tier than Mercy.

…Is the significance of that lost to you? Let me reiterate that.

Mercy is the HIGHEST she ever has been or ever will be prior to her rework.

Ana is the LOWEST she has ever been from the end of season 1 TO DATE. This is 60 damage/shot Ana.

The Meta FAVORS MOBILITY and ACTIVELY PUNISHES a lack thereof.

And Ana is outperforming Mercy in pro play. Mercy is still D-tier.

But don’t take it from me; take it from Jeff Kaplan himself:

"But looking at Competitive only… here are the top 6 picked heroes: Mercy (by a long shot), 76, D.Va, Lucio, Ana and Genji. Interestingly, number 7 is Reinhardt. Next tank after that is… Wi… no Roadhog. So in the past month in Comp, that’s what you’ve been actually playing.

But let’s talk about the elite players… maybe the top 3rd of all MMR. Their top picked hero over the past month was…. Ana. Yes, Ana."

July 7th, 2017.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20757706588?page=2#post-24

So there’s your answer. After Ana’s introduction, Mercy literally never broke D-Tier until her rework. She was, for lack of a better term, a trash pick.

Alright, I’m outta’ here.

[Wrong-22443]

It needed a rework, rather than a complete removal, and it rewards the Mercy for not dying, and punishes DPS or anyone else that can’t kill a Mercy before she gets the rez off.

It didn’t need a rework, Mercy needed a rework and she did get one.

Stop swearing, btw, even obscured it’s still against forums ToS.

LOL