Brigg was the final puzzle piece unfortunately. We had seen parts of GOATS starts to exist before in the triple and quad tank metas, but Brigg was the final piece that made sustain useless. No DPS could out sustain GOATS and the only way around it was to maybe try to be a sniper and one shot.
Then they got rid of GOATS and made Sigma and no sustain DPS outdps the double barriers so it became either burst or Mei Reaper (because that plays like GOATS) and we are still basically in that same situation.
Well, i’ve literally quoted the ones that have back to you… soo. There’s that. Your wilful ignorance of that only further proves the point I might add.
I… did? It’s the 3rd post down from OP. And then i’ve made multiple posts after, probably too many to be honest, to further prove the point.
Actually, I assumed you believed power creep doesn’t exist in the dps roster especially in relation to burst invalidating sustain, or why soldier isn’t great right now as the topic of this thread… and on a not really related argument are trying to say Soldier isn’t bad when compared to mccree, which of course you’re free to your opinion but like, it’s objectively false, with multiple meta’s and stats to back that up.
And that’s one of the flaws i mentioned with your argument. Hanzo scatter did high burst, it could kill a winston in one shot. You’re right, there’s really not any one shot in the game right now that does that. But burst isn’t just about one hit. A tracer one clipping a Zen is considered burst, (which can be done from further away now I might add). 5 storm arrows in the span of like 1.5 seconds or so is considered burst. Ashe dynamite that has a huge radius is considered burst. Doomfist rp on a 4 second cooldown with a relatively large hitbox is considered burst. One ability does not invalidate an entire role becoming more consistent with burst damage.
So yeah, you’re right, no one thing is as strong as what scatter was. However there are many things that have been added or buffed that do a substantial amount of burst damage. This doesn’t really prove your point that burst damage power creep isn’t an issue
Soldier is just in need of a different type of utility.
With sustain dps, he won’t be more desirable than burst heroes.
His semi-self heal is decent, at best.
His sprint is okay but kind of moot at this point.
His kit felt varied enough as a vanilla hero but now, he doesn’t really provide anything unique.
As a natural born leader, I’d like to see Soldier’s biotic heal change a bit. Keep/take away the healing and make anyone in its aoe get a firing speed boost (or reload speed).
It would help him burst but most importantly, give him team utility that skilled teams would want to take advantage of – he could even combo it with his ult!
When people consider choosing Soldier over the other DPS that outdamages him, they will take the overall team-damage increase from his skill into consideration (which may make him a great part of bunker comps).
He wasn’t. In fact he was being played with Tracer more often than not, replacing Genji, and this was like a patch that lasted 2 weeks or so on live, where dive and triple tank co-existed in the meta between Ana’s nade nerf and Ana’s damage nerf.
First you had triple tank with Soldier and that was his niche. Then it become either quad tank OR you replaced the Soldier with Tracer because Tracer was better.
What you are referring to is an era that happened that AFTER his nerf in dive when you could try Soldier instead of Genji. It was drastically inferior, but if you could not play Genji, it worked. That worked for awhile but between Widow changes and Soldier nerfs he became crap.
Between the GOATS era, Sigma existing, and WIdow not being terrible, he was terrible for a VERY VERY long time and that does not seem like it will end anytime soon.
No you are citing data from a time BEFORE the point I am referencing. The ENTIRE premise is he was played in triple tank (ie the very comp you linked) BUT before he was nerfed (and what was funny is this started like a week or two before those changes hit PTR) is those comps realized playing Tracer in Triple Tank is better than Soldier.
So your data is right but about 2 months earlier than relevant points. That is inaccurate citation
nothing you have quoted was an argument supported by “nothing but fallacy”. I replied to those quotes and it seems as if you haven’t responded.
im talking about in that reply lmao. you posed a bunch of questions with the assumption that my answers would debunk myself (and the answers didn’t), then you say that they’re the definition of power creep. it probably would have been better if you simply formed that into an actual argument.
you could scroll up.
how is that “objectively false”? how can you objectively determine that mccree would be better than soldier regardless of meta? saying objectively doesn’t make your opinion fact.
never did I say that a burst could only mean one hit. burst is just value over a short period of time. how short is arbitrary.
its considered burst the same way ana nade is. its a longish cooldown with a burst of value. dynamite isn’t a very high burst of damage relative to other current and previous dps.
that isn’t what I was claiming though. they said dps burst is higher in damage, consistency, and speed than any other point in time. they used this to (presumably) defend the idea that soldier and sustained damage as a whole is underpowered because of burst damage. comparing hanzo and scatter is fair because soldier was top tier when hanzo had significantly more burst. I don’t think soldier isn’t meta because “burst damage crep”. there are other factors.
Ok, well you can say that… but just a few posts ago:
And then this one where I quoted a bunch you used on other people.
Then again you’re still continuing to be willfully ignorant here in this exact post.
And here. Devolving the conversation by avoiding the issue, attacking the word “objectively” and ignoring that it is an objective fact with the stats to prove it. You’re literally ignoring the point that statistical data over the course of multiple meta’s has shown McCree as better than Soldier, even more so after his buffs.
Except you did in argument. Saying Burst damage isn’t a problem because nothing is as high damage as scatter was back in the day.
At this point, It’d be harder to find something in your post that’s not a fallacy or at least fallacious in nature.
edit: and now that you're already typing, probably to continue arguing for the sake of arguing as you've already admitted to doing, go ahead and have the last word my dude. This conversation is going nowhere.
Soldier’s not bad, in fact he’s better than he’s ever been. Other hero’s have just been power crept way above his abilities.
there are times where he feels useless and shouldnt but i think maybe he’s in a place where you have to double down on positioning and heighten your awareness the constant balancing devs do is always ruining the meta and forcing different approaches
you claim that my argument is based off fallacy because you are referring to an incorrect definition? do you claim that the logic in my argument is fallacious because I interpreted “people” as people who play the game this forum is based on?
you’re really good at this.
I’m not attacking the word, I’m attacking your argument. your claim is that mccree is objectively better than soldier regardless of meta so my response is simply asking how you know this to be true. winrate and pickrate stats only show their power in a current meta, not their power regardless of meta. also I guess you can just ignore the question
that actually isnt what I said, I said that burst damage creep isn’t at an all time high because old hanzo has more burst than anyone currently. I didn’t say just scatter as I was referring to the whole character.
its not going anywhere because you’re too interested in calling things fallacious or defensive simply because they don’t align with your view of the game. even after I explain how its not fallacious you’ll simply ignore it.
I think Soldier is okay, at least in my games. He’s a dependable midline fighter that can pump out damage very consistently.
It’s just, his “jack-of-all-trades” nature makes it easy for him to be outshined by other heroes. But make no mistake, you can still get value out of him! It just might not be as flashy as getting a Widowmaker headshot, or a 5-target Deadeye.