Echo’s current ultimate will make Zarya, Dva and hanzo never picked again. Without an ult limit these heroes ults can easily be spammed to wipe a team. The player in question doesn’t even have to be skilled to exploit ult spamming. A single hanzo body shot gives 75% ult charge, it only takes a single dragon to build enough momentum to begin ult spamming for a team wipe.
This logic can be applied to DVA ( Very easy to spam self-destruct and remech) and Zarya (1-2 Gravs ends a team fight).
I understand the devs see not playing these heroes as counterplay, but that puts them in limbo. If you are playing Dva and you see someone swap to Echo. You are forced on a timer to switch off your hero or witness your team get wiped by your own pick. No hero in this game counters someone hard enough to be punished with a team wipe.
Pharah vs Sym, Junkrat and Reaper just means that those heroes lack the range to kill her, that doesn’t mean Pharah will wipe their teams.
Echo vs Hanzo, Zarya and DVA currently does mean that picking those heroes will get your team wiped. Not picking those heroes is foolish counterplay and will create a toxic player relationship with echo vs those heroes.
If you don’t change duplicate again (I recommend a one ult limit), then you will be forced to in the future once the playerbase gets their hands on her anyways.
If you think everything is fine and dandy, then that’s alright. You will be changing it anyways regardless once it hits live, I say that with extreme confidence.
I think D.Va might actually be a strong counter to Echo. Considering she could consistently eat her Sticky Bombs, and chase her in the air the same way she does to Pharah. That beam though, it’s gonna be a problem.
Hanzo for sure, but it’s so hard to get grav with Zarya. You start with no charge and the enemy team knows what you’re trying to do so they just back off. Kind of the same with D.Va, the enemy team will just hide from you cuz they know you’re trying to get bombs. It really puts a target on your back as well.
Echo may technically give Orisa a “buff” tho. You need a shield for when an ulting Echo is thirsting for ult charge. Orisa can also help shooting at Echo while she’s in the air and won’t be be a target to duplicate. Whereas a duplicated Rein can just charge in, get a near instant ult, shatter, and keep swinging to repeat the process
I’m really not sure if I buy that zarya thing. She spawns with 0 charge and grav isn’t the fastest ultimate to charge regardless. I’ve only ever seen her get a single grav and it’s usually pretty bad because it’s so telegraphed. Zarya-clone can get some good value out of bubbles and all, but I wouldn’t really clone her.
Dva is a solid clone, considering that you can go h a m, you have short cd immediate impact abilites, and you can get ultimates very often, but in general Dva is also quite good at fending Echo off (outside of duplication).
Hanzo is a big ol ??? cause dragons is meh at best and he doesn’t have any brutal cds to use. It’s more of the fact that Echo is just plain better than Hanzo right now.
If anything Rein will be the most duplicated hero, but he’s so good that you’ll want to run him in spite of the duplicates.
Seriously? One dragon is mediocre, but once multiple are spammed the team will get wiped. CDs don’t matter when the ult will just be spammed.
It doesn’t matter if Dva can fend off Echo’s flank. What matters in that match-up is ult-charge. Once Echo has duplicate DVA will be used to wipe, the only counter to this would be to suicide off a cliff and pick a different hero before Echo initates a teamfight with duplicate.
I don’t know how many he can get out practically though, and if he can’t get them out he’s not very effective because he provides so little else. Maybe he can get out two, but the second one will be quite telegraphed and delayed enough that it will be not quite as hard to dodge. I don’t think that it’ll be so scary that it would necessitate not picking him, although I could be wrong.
Rein is just far and away the best duplicate right now, so if he’s on the enemy team (and he will be), it’s hard to justify cloning anything else. Dva is a good runnup though.
Have you actually seen any pros play Echo lately? If you watch some of the videos from a few days in, D.Va is actually not the best choice for her ult unless you’re already in a favorable misfight position just because her damage is easily blocked and D.Va is also a very easy target to focus, especially one that’s glowing blue. You also gotta understand that the enemy dps just turned into a MASSIVE ult battery for your team. There is counterplay/tradeoffs in these situations. And when she doesnt have ult, D.Va is really good at shutting down Echo with DM and just harrassing her. Secondly, Zarya is a terrible ult target for Echo because you have to build charge to really be even to GET grav, and if you bubble then the enemy just has to not shoot you and then punish you. Lastly, Hanzo is a very inconsistent hero, and if someone can swap to Hanzo midgame, pop off for a few seconds with his kit, and then let loose a massive dragon, I’m honestly ok with that. But if he was that good he’d be in a higher ELO where Widow would just click on his head lol. And if he’s in lower ELO he probably wont even get dragon. Best targets for her ult imo are actually supports. Having a third support all of a sudden just means you can Goats style rush the objective with an ez sound barrier or nano or coalescence or transcendence, literally any extra support ult + support for a 15 second ult is massive.
I think there’s a lot of misinformation with regards to how ultimates are generated and how one gets ultimate charge. It’s not from doing damage, it’s not just from passives or kills or even death that generates ultimate points and ultimate charge, but it is dependent on the hero picked.
When it comes to Hanzo, most of his ultimate charge points that he gets is through headshots, body shots and typical damage (and passively) also generate points (like everyone else), but most of his ultimate game comes through headshots. With Echo, her ultimate gain when in Duplication, is further multipled by the effects through which other heroes pick up their ultimate charge, so in this case, if Echo were to land a headshot with Duplicated Hanzo, she’ll pick up a ton of ultimate charge.
Zarya is different, she does not generate much ultimate charge through any form of damage, but she will generate enormous amounts of ultimate charge through damage absorption via her barriers, The more damage she absorbs, and the more frequently she produces a barrier, the more ultimate charge she gains. Consequently, if Zarya’s unable to get much return through her barriers, she can’t generate enough ultimate charge to charge her ultimate, and likewise, for Echo this sees a multiplied effect.
Thus, for Echo to get the most power out of her ultimate, she needs to be able to Duplicate a character, and then perform actions within a set amount of time that help her generate ultimate points to gain enough to pick an ultimate. And then perform said ultimate, while dealing with the possibility of the ultimate seeing some kind of counterplay. Given the limited amount of time and the possibility of death - losing the Duplication effect - it can be very difficult to effectively get off more than one or two ultimate charges. If there was sufficient success on the first ultimate, the second ultimate is less likely to cause even more damage (and the third or fourth may be impossible to generate in the limited time frame). And likewise, if the first ultimate didn’t see much success, the second ultimate is even less likely to succeed as counter-play options and general defensive play are at work to prevent, slow, or mitigate the possibility of a second attempt.
Should the second attempt occur, the possibility of success is still possible (and still likely to turn the tide), but that effort is likely going to depend heavily on the skill of the team.
In general play, Duplication can have some pretty hefty consequences, but given the amount of effort needed to produce sufficent return after Duplication, this seems balanced. If Duplication starts seeing greater and greater returns there’s a number of things they can do to curb its power. Such as…
Reducing the ultimate point generation after the first post-Duplication ultimate
Increasing the amount of ultimate points needed to Duplicate (already did this once)
Reduce the effects of Duplication ultimates (lower damage, duration, healing, etc.)
Hard cap the number of ultimates produced while under Duplication.
Forcibly end Duplication after the ultimate is performed, successful or not.
Whether these elements are needed or necessary is not clear yet. Based on current experiences and observations, I do not think so. Blizzard has better data collection than anyone here, so if problems present themselves, they can adjust them as necessary.
“Zarya is different, she does not generate much ultimate charge through any form of damage…” Ok so im going to have to counter here as you are absolutely incorrect and this can be easily tested in the training room - 0 generation through shields. Its all about her damage - go test and you will see. The only actions I see which give charge are damage and healing. Shields-bubbles / Dva-Sig absorb / hacking - all do not assist with charge.