honestly if people are so against this idea i would have thought that solo ranking and not chosing what map you play on or the randomness of weapons that have a spray pattern etc would be a much bigger issue than this. i’m talking about a melée attack in a game where you shoot people where the impact of melée attacks is mostly affected by characters that wants to be close to the target, and it’s such a miniscule chance of happening on an attack that does very little damage.
for clarity the parameters i’m talking about is the normal punch, not all the melée abilities.
also most pvp games have RNG but in weird forms, the least rng would be a gun that doesn’t have recoil or stray shot or bounces around after, one of the least rng based weapons is symmetras beam gun, compare that to reaper or roadhogs random shotguns that shoot pellets in a random pattern and crits randomly because of it.
if you want less rng, then why accept the rng that allready exists in abundance in overwatch?
For me personally, I wish there was a pick the map but then you just have people who only specialize in one map which may make them very good at just that map but then awful at every single other map.
Weapon Spray only limits you in the fashion that you have an effective range. When you’re within 10m or less of a target as Tracer, you’ll more or less be hitting your mark. As Sombra, you have the ability to pop in and out so that you are able to catch someone off guard. This enables you to be in close range. Shotgun style characters were always meant to be close range. Reaper’s life steal and Hog’s hooks essentially allow you to be close to your target. As a side note, Hog’s ULT is 5 scrapgun shots lined horizontally with 0 damage dropoff.
With all these characters, you know whether or not you’re going to be able to kill the opponent or not. You know your effective range, you know what your character is capable of.
Tag in a random critical on melee attacks. A Sombra/Tracer is harassing a backline and Ana is trying to heal them and the frontline. For argument’s sake, after 1 clip player is left with 30 hp. Ana shoots a dart, Tracer goes for the melee finisher. Currently, the Tracer doesn’t get the kill. Ana shoots one more dart or nades and focuses on frontline as the Tracer has to now back out. If you introduce a crit chance, now the Ana has to chance whether or not they are saved. The previous scenario has a chance that the melee does double damage and will kill no matter what. Think about how frustrating that would actually be. A player that should not have died under your watch is now dead because some random crit occurs.
Ever get charged randomly coming around the corner from an overly aggressive Rein? Well now you have a 15% chance to die from a swing without anyway to know.
These are the types of random chances that you do not want to introduce into the game. Like I said before, it makes for a fun workshop mode but not in the official game.
Least RNG by far is WM’s scoped shots. Most accurate, no falloff.
The shotgun’s spread is ~20 degrees. 7(hellfire) or 6(scrapgun) damage per pellet @ 20 (hellfire) or 25(scrapgun) pellets this is within the effective range of <10m (hellfire) or <15m (scrapgun). Even if 1 just happens to crit within effective range then it’s 12 or 14 dmg. Which if Reaper is within effective range or Hog’s hooked you then you’re most likely already dead.
An even simpler example, 2 Reins swinging at each other. One has 225 hp, the other 220. Currently they will both die after 3 swings. But with this random critical chance, one will die in 2 hits OR if someone is super unlucky 226+HP Rein dies in 2 hits (formerly 4). Would it really be enjoyable for you if a 1v1 fight that you should have had was just taken away not because of counterplay but because your opponent got a lucky roll?
you can’t guarantee x number of criticals with shotgun or spread weapons from viable range, that’s rng.
widows charge timer is a controlled form of rng, usually a good widow don’t charge the whole way through to kill 200 hp characters for speed and effeciency which means that they can miss time the ability by less than 0,1 seconds which is a form of rng.
in owl they choose maps.
tracers chance to kill is only affected against low healing healers that can’t heal faster than 61 hps in an instant. in which if they can’t heal faster than 31 hps in an instant the target is dead anyways no matter how you look at it.
the reinhardt swing is unaffected by crits perhaps in this scenario as it could be looked at as an ability more so than a normal melée hit.
this crit thing would be pretty nuts to play against a brig or rein, that would be like saying that winstons tesla cannon could crit.
i mean if we go by that example that every melée ability could crit what’s to stop it from doomfists punch, it would double the initial damage of rocket punch, or any of his other abilities, or genjis blade if that crits it would have a chance to do 240 damage which is just introducing too much chaos to a game that is allready filled with it. but small attacks that anyone barely does like an ana that gets jumped by tracer would have an increased chance at taking her out in point blank scenarios.
it’s not like i don’t see your point. it’s just that i don’t see any point in getting upset about a chance to crit with small melée attacks in comparison to reaper not being able to instantly kill an ana from point blank range with one shot every time consistently, it’s about the same type of rng.
or the more eggregious examples of rng that can and will play a big role in your sucess that allready exists in the game that’s called solo rank. you have no say in your teamates the only thing you can expect is that they share the same rank as you for one reason or another and even that is not a guaranteed thing to happen as the matchmaker isn’t perfect.
for example a master or higher could play with lower skilled teammates just to have to carry to keep their rank which is very unfair in a team game.
For the most part yes. I also highly doubt that people rely on Reaper to secure kills. Even from my lower tier games, it’s to apply pressure to tanks or keep Winston’s off our backline.
Uh no. RNG would be if a 0 timed shot deals 100% charge damage and a 100% charge damage deals the base damage. This example you gave is just that I didn’t charge enough.
Yeah and? I was saying that I would like to be able to choose my own maps but then you would have people that play one map only to get to high tier but then would be 3 tiers below on other maps.
Professionals play selected maps because there’s a strategy to it. There is nothing stopping the other team from watching and inspecting what the enemies strengths are and playing around that. For example if team A is strong on Illios, nothing prevents team B from practicing that non-stop knowing fully well that there’s a very high likelihood Illios will be picked.
So, let’s essentially leave chance to dictate whether the following heroes are useful or not:
Mercy (50 hps)
Ana (75 split into 4 ticks)
Lucio without Amp (12.3 hps)
Zen (30 hps)
Moira without the target nearby
Brigitte without repair pack
So that’s 6 support heroes that you completely screw over via RNG chance with what you consider to be a simple and healthy game change.
This is a start to your suggestion. You should provide more details of exactly how you want this to work. Then take into consideration what you’re screwing over in the overall picture if you want to keep a discussion alive.
Beats me, you brought up the idea of random crits to melee not us. You should be the one explaining in further detail how you want it to work, rather than leaving it incredibly vague.
Btw Ana can solo a full HP tracer if a sleep hits. That’s already strong enough IMO rather than giving her a chance at survival just cause she swings around wildly mashing melee.
Like in my example much further up, Reaper to me is meant to apply pressure and have the ability to move out and escape when needed. I don’t consider him to be a solo kill securer (IMO, not what the community thinks). Combined with another DPS hero, he makes for removing lots of HP and allows other more accurate heroes to secure the kill. If Reaper had no spread, do you really think this community wouldn’t be in an outrage?
I solo non-stop. Recently made it back to Diamond. I personally only find issues with people that just are super vocal about everything and put their team down. On an actual skill level, there’s not much difference from the tiers that I played in (gold-Diamond, most plat). The main difference is that in gold, I can DPS my way out because my individual skill is higher than most. In high plat, I’d be willing to go Tanks, Support because the DPS players there would at least know how to disengage or know when fights are lost so it makes my job easier. Sure you don’t have a say in who you get as a teammate, but if you aren’t a dick to them or you just know how to ignore them when they are a problem using mute/squelch then they will do the same and not make a big deal. It’s when you fight with your team that makes it a lost game. It’s been like this for 20+ years for me, I just know how to deal with terrible minded players.
I’ve never really cared if there were mismatched games. I’ve queue’d with a silver friend while I was gold/plat border. I’ve queue’d with gold when I was in Plat. I’ve queue’d with Diamond players when I was Plat. Win or loss, the point was to teach the friend how not to tilt, try to show them what went wrong (team or individual), or for me to learn from higher skill games.
on the note on the crit suggestion, it was just a fun suggestion based on a casual standpoint, it was not my intention to put this topic into the competitive forum that was a late night idea i had, the clue was probably because i didn’t put the crit into any parameters how it would function.
then i just got reminded how much rng there really is in this game and i got baffled by the blowback by such a miniscule rng event that doesn’t affect 95% of games in any way, but other rng events affect 50% of all games in some way in comparison.
for example the reaper one, this is exactly why he is not a true assassin and more of a bruiser as you stated because his spread is too unreliable against smaller targets. (which to me in my personal opinion this is one of the reasons why reaper sucks in higher tier)
as for the whole matchmaking rant i had, and map selection being rng, that’s simply things i think is very unhealthy for a team game if you take it seriously enough to be competitive.
for example solo ranking, sure you might know the ability of a hero but you have no idea what that person you just qeued with is capable of or how they like to play etc unless you’ve grouped up with them and played a bunch of matches with them which is a team building excercise which is kind of the backbone of a team game,
also being able to practice on specific maps to actually learn and employ a strategy is very helpful in the scenario that if you do play with a group on the regular you can actually use that strategy to the best of your ability with a well functioning team that you’ve practiced with.
but currently playing with a random team you just have an idea how it should work but can’t employ the more intricate details of that strategy because your team is so highly disorganized because of the randomness so you more or less are just grasping for straws of any semblance of a functioning strategy which dumbs down the game in general by a lot which gives rise to more random things happening in the game.
as you are probably aware the better you become the better you get at eliminating the probability of chance, but this doesn’t mean there isn’t a chance of things happening out of your control anyways.
and that’s just how things work.
and that’s why i don’t like solo rank.
in my estimation it’s just a place to practice a character more so than learning the strategies that exists in the game to it’s full extent.
but yeah, i guess that’s why custom games exists, you can choose maps and challenge the enemies you want to face and you have to gather a group that you can play with which is most likely a group you’ve played with previously a lot which is much more beneficial to learning the ins and outs of the games strategies in terms of maps, team work and composition.
and i assume you are kind of used to that since you’ve played for a long time and should probably be more inclined to play that if you had a choice.
but right now, people play solo rank because “ranks means something”
and it’s easy to get into and you don’t have to work to get a game, but it’s everything but a proper match.
i wish you the best and i hope you do have fun in solo rank.
sorry for wasting your time with a small casual suggestion.
This is where the thought process is different. You may think that hey it’s just a fun might happen sort of deal. To others, it’s a chance that I can kill that 25% hp target and if they go for it but it doesn’t proc then they’re out of position (promote overextending). Along with my support examples (ruining the flow of the game/non-consistency). Your proposed changes will effect more than what you think it will. This is what always should be considered when you make any changes. No matter how small it will be, and this is what Blizzard is pretty bad at. They release balance changes with what the players complain about the most (putting out fires rather than actual balance changes, to the point where PTR comments are ignored and the changes are released anyway).
The reason why all maps should be played equally is that so no matter what map/gamemode you get tossed into, you’re going to be equally as good in that map as the others. There was a joke in CSGO that Office or Vertigo Globals are a joke compared to true globals (one’s playing Dust2) because you’re essentially capped at MGE skilled players and you’re climbing but you’re much awful than Dust2 players.
You can find that out within one round. The real test is knowing how your opponents play. The focus is going on the wrong side. I also enjoy this aspect of solo queue’ing. It has nothing to do with who’s picked what it’s about identifying what’s dying/not dying, the state of offense/defense in the playing field and tipping it to your favor.
I mean this is ladder play. This is how it is, sometimes someone will pick a Bastion and people will play around it while othertimes people won’t. If you want consistency in your teammates then roll with a group of 6. As for the randomness that occurs in games. Silver was the absolute best. Get booped around while charging as Rein by a Lucio, Brig and a Junkrat to end up charging a Pharah midair. You can’t have hilarious moments like that in Plat+.
I actually have the most time in comp. Played every single season and enough games per season that it concerns me. However, all in all I still enjoy it. I would rather play with 5 different people playing 5 different heroes every single game than being forced to play Rein/Zarya/D.Va/Lucio/Zen/Brig goats every single game.
My second most played is Mystery Heroes. Why? Because as much as I’m advocating against your idea of added RNG, not knowing what hero to get and then employing the strat depending on what 5 other people get allows you to realize how much you really know the hero and the game. However, I definitely wouldn’t make this a competitive game mode.
From my experience it’s still a game mode where everyone (and I sincerely mean EVERYONE) is trying to win. Regardless of how much they try to hide it. It’s a gamemode where matches are taken more seriously than other official game modes.
You don’t have to feel this way if you bring up your suggestion with proper details, pros/cons, but most importantly if you’ve thought your suggestion through fully before bringing it up.
This is all we had to go with when we joined this thread and as I countered your initial statements you went into more details as even you realized more things good/bad with this idea.
yeah and that’s how it should go, you bounce the ball back and forth and flesh out the idea, sometimes it’s just maybe not fitting, but the disdain i got to it without any real arguments were really disappointing by some others felt a bit rude.
i like talking about this stuff, the “what if” and maybe find something that could be fun or interesting, because as you said (paraphrasing) playing the same comp, over and over is not everyones cup of tea.
and i thought maybe introduce something that can give some life to a more stiff composition.
i was just apoligizing for taking up a bit of your time as you thought this was a competitive topic but it wasn’t.
i put it in the competitive forum by accident.
anyways it’s been interesting to hear your perspective on solo rank and what you like about it and how you justify it.
but the vast majority that complains about their team is just so overwhelming to me that it kinda drowns out all the reasons for it to be a good game mode.
on a different note.
how would you introduce a more group based game mode more designed for 6 stack?
or do you think normal ranked mode is good enough for this to work as is?
This will always happen to any game that is popular. I’ve seen it in almost every game that I’ve ever played. I think I’m just about average or slightly above in most things that I’ve played so I just barely squeeze by the unbalanced matches. As you get to lower tiers (from where a lot of the complaints come from), there are people that are not meant to be there by choice or by unfortunate events. For example, last season I just wasn’t in the right mood/mindset to play so I dropped to almost Silver (20xx). Eventually I got my stuff together, picked McCree and literally single handedly rolled through matches until I got back to Plat. I didn’t choose to throw down to Silver, I just wasn’t playing the game with the right mindset getting me to drop that low. But there are people who intentionally throw in order to make themselves feel better because they most likely are unable to do anything in their proper tier.
Both of these are a problem which existed for as long as I can remember. The first one more of a stop using video games as a means to escape reality and second one being that people only find joy in beating others in competitive games.
When other people that say game X has much better matchmaking than this trash (OW), I am willing to bet that they are high ranked/good at that game so that they don’t see the above issues. I’ve actually gone through getting dumped on in Quake 3 for months until I finally got decent enough to compete with others. I think it’s this step that’s lacking, but the other issue is that the “getting decent/getting good” is much harder in Overwatch because it’s not really just a full on FPS. I still would consider this game more of a moba than a FPS, which means you have much more to worry about than just your health pool, ammo, position.
I truly think that there’s nothing wrong with how competitive is built currently. With the metas out there you have a build template, Goats/Dive/Deathball/Bunker and then as long as the core heroes are picked the other slots can be whatever they want to be. Then heroes get switched depending upon what the opponents composition is.
The problem comes with a lack of understand and a sense of pride from the players. On average, you might get a swap between rounds but never within the current round. So then I’m mainly the one doing the switching to attempt to fix the current composition, 50% of the time this won’t necessarily work and people will blame me for the loss but there are games where someone will switch because they know they aren’t getting the value from their role. Othertimes lack of damage, lack of healing was the issue and it works because we now have the third damage/support player.
So if you’re playing in a 6 stack vs another 6 stack, I think the vanilla game should work fine. If you’re talking solos vs solos then I’d like to see more effort from both the player’s side and the developer’s side to actually try to learn/teach the game. It’s not a simple game and the faster people understand how to play heroes into/against X team builds, the faster we’ll all be able to play the game the way it was really intended to.
i mostly agree, except there was a time when you either played no matter your skill and got better eventually and some salt was present sure but it wasn’t like it is today where the game changes something atleast once a month.
i think people were just better at letting things go because they knew nothing could be done about it, but now it feels like people are acting spoiled because they expect changes over time and they do have in a weird way a say in how the game changes and so they become much more prevalent.
i think one of the problems this game have is that people get so connected to characters that they don’t feel like playing anything else but that character,
and that ends up affecting gameplay so much aswell as spilling over into these weird thing that people get personally affected when “their” character gets buffed or nerfed that there is actually public outcries over these things.
it’s almost like an MMO where they think they picked that character and now they are stuck with that character for a long time forward, but in reality it’s nothing more than an advanced weapon skin.
people swap weapons easily depending on what they need, but when it comes to characters, nope they don’t want to change.
it’s weird like that.
anyways i have no intention of playing any team based shooter competitively unless i can field a whole team that i can play with on a regular basis.
to me randoms is too much of a pain to deal with in a competitive setting so i either rather play casually or not at all in those cases.
all it takes for me is just 1 person being a debbie downer that it darkens my whole day and makes me tilt harder than my aunties coffe table.
i don’t know how people got time for others that go out of their way to ruin your day.
why can’t they just be happy to be able to play a game?
Playing solo isn’t the issue but groups within solo q. In order for it to be (more) competitive, there needs to be equal conditions for every participant in a match.
You could argue that everybody can join a group beforehand but it makes determining skill more difficult regardless, especially with how groups work on OW.
Understand that everybody just needs to face/overcome the same obstacles however they choose to within the given rules in order for it to be competitive.
Wow we have a new contender in the highly competitive field for “worst topic of the year”.
You know what would spice up the game? Maybe when Widow shoots there’s like a 10% chance it will jerk away from the shot. And maybe there’s also a 10% chance it will instead correct a minor distance and pop on their head. What exciting variable fun that would be! It’s fun because it’s inconsistent, unpredictable and entirely unrelated to any players input :3
you mean for it to be balanced since groups have usually the upper hand since they can communicate and work together better than randoms can putting randoms on the backfoot off the get go.
it’s actually less competitive if groups are random since it devolves into less difficult strategies to employ and less intricacies.
well yeah it’s in the wrong forum hence why i apoligized and actually called it out several times since i’m unable to delete it.
i understand that it’s a wall of text and you don’t have time to read every single post but i did actually call it out a number of times.
I didn’t know it was in competitive forum. Luck elements are generally considered awful elements in gaming. People don’t like the dice roll nature of random teams either if you hadn’t noticed. They don’t like getting carried or rekt by smurfs or having an easy loss/win vs a thrower - it’s a very common complaint. All the elements of RNG that you used to justify adding more is actually a random element people hate (like practically all random elements). Btw shotgun spread is fixed now. The crit/non-crit is still thought of poorly.
Not to rain on your parade. The argument is just too temptingly weak
like for example the difference between killing in one shot or not? yeah reaper got that covered.
i did notice and i did point it out why it’s an issue and that’s why i thought if people are okay with that mess why not random crits on small punches.
we could even make punches do 15 dmg and crit for 30 if that is more in line with your taste, that way it’s not overpowered but actually underpowered but still have an element of randomness in it, it’s after all a close quarter aoe attack much like a shotgun blast but much more accurate.
This matters WHERE the attacks are placed, not whether or not you hit them in a random location and get a crit based on hitting or missing. A crit comes only from a headshot, that hit a target.
The spread of the shot is not in question, as it still generates an attack pattern that finds a target on a body.
so you are telling me you will get approximately the same numbers that you can exactly predict with reapers shotgun every single time from 10m away if the enemy and reaper stands exactly still even on a smaller target if he shoots at the same spot every single time.
even though they did nerf/buff it before due to this rng because it had a better chance at one-shotting before due to the randomness of the spread.
i mean if that is the argument why not let punches be more accurate and be able to crit if you hit someone in the head? that way you won’t deal the exact amount to every single target that the punch hits but become more deadly the more accurate you are with it, then we aren’t in the realm of rng anymore and there’s nothing to complain aboutn except that punches can now crit if you are more skilled.
You’re ignoring the fact that it’s ONE ATTACK performing individual calculations based on single shot pellets.
If you crit a melee attack, it’s like gaining the ability for all those pellets to hit a headshot for just clipping someone on the leg and rolling the dice.