How Mass rez was more fun than now and if it was even healthy


#13

well put simply it’s different people, and most of what was discussed was archived when the new forums came out, most of those that discussed to death other methods had nothing more to say to the brick wall that has been the devs on the subject, at this point it’s a smaller amount of people acting like broken records hoping to get it fixed.

The devs made it clear they won’t touch her ultimates and abilities for a while if at all, the last change was reverting her healing from 60hp to 50hp making it even more dps watch as tanks are harder to keep around even in high tier there’s a need to have a rien around but only for a now slight advantage in covering fire.

Torbs getting a rework I think I hear whispers of rien getting a full rework and not just his ult, and after that Doomfist will get a rework because no actual reasons we just want to work on what’s fun and not actually balance the game or anything.

So yeah maybe in a year there will be a comment in an off-handed post about “possibly” looking into mercy again but other than that mercy’s updates are done save for minor adjustments (and to anyone attempting to start giving me crap about how a 10 hps is not minor, it is, it’s a small change with big consequences those things can happen don’t act like all changes are the biggest changes 3var)


#14

Mass Rez will never be healthy for this game. Not only does it make Mercy the number 1 target at all times (which should never be the case for any hero) she’ll also go back to oppressing the entire support class.

I can go on and on etc so no thx it can stay gone


#15

Except Mercy never “oppressed” any other support when she had mass rez.


#16

“The counter was simply not stacking all your ults into a fight without killing the Mercy”

I think this is really bad game design and highlights one of the core problems I had with her ultimate. Just because a team failed to kill a Mercy shouldn’t mean that all of their work should just be negated. In almost any other scenario I can think of, killing 5/6 of the enemy combatants all but secures that particular team fight (there are always exceptions, but those are unlikely to occur). I can’t think of any other Hero that has that kind of power in the game without any kind of massive weakness that can be exploited.

“There’s also a ton more CC in the game than there was before to stop her from rezing.”

This would not make a difference because Mass Rez (as it was previously implemented, at least) was a “fire and forget” instant-cast ability that offered invulnerability when used. There’s no counter to something like this minus pre-preemptively killing Mercy before she can hit “Q” on her keyboard, and that’s incredibly unfair for the opposing team.

“Most “revert”/rework ideas also include adding more direct counterplay, including a line of sight restriction.”

Line of sight is a good idea, but not nearly enough. The only way to balance an ability as powerful as Mass Rez, in my opinion, are as follows:

  1. Rez has a cast time (similar to the way it is in Live) - possibly the cast time varies depending on how many people are going to be brought back.

  2. Rez can be interrupted when being cast, which shuts down the ability.

  3. Rez must be line-of-sight (as you suggest above)

  4. Rez non longer offers invincibility to Mercy

Though in all reality, the only changes I think would be necessary are removing invulnerability and adding a standard cast time to offer some viable counterplay.


#17

D.va can block multiple ultimates outright, to the point where it’s usually not worth using them until you demech her. Zen and Lucio can negate many ults with their ults, again, to the point where most people wait until they’re able to kill them or bait out their ults.

You can CC her before she’s able to rez and kill her. Regardless, like I said, most ideas involve adding more direct counterplay anyways, like removing invuln and adding a LoS restriction and possibly a cast time.


#18

It’s almost as if we don’t want a full revert. :face_with_monocle:


#19

“No reason”. I really don’t want to believe that.


#20

You don’t need mass rez or any ult to punish poor ult usage, they would already be behind in economy. The exception is closing out a map, and the economic effects of rez would only matter if your team was doing particularly badly.

Then there’s no need for mass rez if tempo rez is not only sufficient, but better in nearly every scenario. If anything, leaving mass rez in the game is counterintuitive to optimal Mercy gameplay.

The most effective was to send a flanker and hope they got lucky and covered the right angle of approach or checked the right corner, sometimes twice per fight. Mass rez was centralizing and excessively deterministic.

A fast and fluid ult-linked tempo rez makes sense. Mass rez does not.


#21

“D.va can block multiple ultimates outright, to the point where it’s usually not worth using them until you demech her.”

Defense Matrix isn’t very fun to fight against but it isn’t at all comparible to Mercy’s Old Rez. There are plenty of ways to play around it and the DM itself has numerous exploitable weaknesses in its design. For instance, it has a low charge and it takes D.Va about a second to toggle between it being on and off. It’s certainly harder for some Heroes to play around than others, but there is still plenty of opportunity for counterplay there.

“Zen and Lucio can negate many ults with their ults, again, to the point where most people wait until they’re able to kill them or bait out their ults.”

This is true but it’s not a fair comparison to what Old Rez was capable of. Zen ultimate is hard-countered by an Ana Grenade, and even though it has powerful healing it won’t be able to save anybody from a Junkrat Tire or D.Va bomb. Lucio is similar, but his is also hard-countered by EMP. They are incredibly powerful abilities but the game still lets you play around them. Same can’t be said for Old Rez.

“You can CC her before she’s able to rez and kill her. Regardless, like I said, most ideas involve adding more direct counterplay anyways, like removing invuln and adding a LoS restriction and possibly a cast time.”

Is it possible to CC her before she hits Q? Sure it’s possible, but good luck pulling that off with any real reliability. It’s not viable enough to be considered a true counter, IMO. I agree about the last part, though. They could have nerfed Old Rez and added more options to play against it and it probably would have been fine. Multirez as an idea is fine, the execution was what killed it.

In the end though, it’s unlikely it’ll ever come back. They put a ton of time developing something like Valkrie and I don’t see them scrapping all of that development time just to go back to what they had before. It’s possible, but I wouldn’t bet on it.


#22

How so? Tempo rezzes aren’t a fixed number.


#23

I fine Valk more fun of an ult because just being able to fly around freely.


#24

I find it boring because it’s a jack of all trades, remotely insufficient in none and it’s just glorified spectator mode.


#25

It isn’t “more fun” now. It’s “less unfun”. Huge difference.


#26

Well, the fun part mainly comes from if you use her blaster while Valking.


#27

Don’t know how effective that will be in GM/High Masters. Let’s not risk it. :slight_smile:

Same results: One is more fun than the other. One is less fun than the other.


#28

Tempo rez is nearly always single target rez as the idea is to prevent a 5v6 to stop a potential snowball. Occasionally a 2 man if both die at the same time, but for the purposes of a third rework, single target would work. If we’ve learned anything from the current rework, it’s that single target rez is more than enough to require locking to an ult.


#29

Not really… It’s a res done to continue the tempo of a fight. 5 man resses can be tempo resses if used almost exactly after your team died. Also, Mercy was underpowered with mass Res so I don’t really see how decreasing the amount of players you’re able to res will help. Also, if your team dies in a pile, how do you choose who to res? A single resurrect is not a tempo res if it doesn’t continue the tempo of the fight. Solo resurrect outside of a fight and it is not a tempo res.


#30

Not true at all. Sometimes, sure, but definitely not “nearly always”. The goal of a tempo rez isn’t to bring the fight back to a 6v6, that’s a waste of rez. The goal is to give your team the numbers advantage, which you can do with a single rez in some circumstances, but it’s often either not necessary or not going to win you the fight.


#31

Nope. We’ve learned that you should never put Resurrect on a static CD.


#32

If your entire team dies your momentum crashes even if you rez them up right after and I never implied that all single target rezzes are tempo rezzes.

Mercy being underpowered doesn’t mean mass rez didn’t need reworking and her kit was always kinda missing something. I’d lean toward a substantially reworked valkyrie+instant single target rez.

People have to carefully select their rez targets on live at the moment anyway.

Barring the implementation of some resource system that’s kinda what I said?

Current rez proves otherwise. The goal was always to prevent a numbers advantage; gaining it requires waiting for someone to die on the enemy team, and more people to die on your team.