Hanzo's Storm Arrows are INSANE

Consider that hanzo is a victim (beneficiary?) of the meta that has only one dps slot, and he’s just the best to fill it.

In another meta he might not be as overwhelming. We don’t want a scenario where he was just reworked to viability, nerfed prematurely and basically becomes useless again as the meta shifts.

I can see how you’d struggle to make sense of it, since it shows just how inaccurate your statements were.

So that’s your definition of ‘by far’ most overpowered? There’s -barely- an argument there that’s she more at all. Slightly better K/D and total damage, but less than half the kill value in ult. You didn’t just say she was a little more, barely the most overpowered…

Please. You got busted on the ‘most overpowered by far’ with your own metrics.
Nice try though.

Re: Widow. That’s not how you’ve ever used the context of ‘role’. Don’t add being disingenuous to the list of your shortfalls now. Role has been ‘among tanks’, ‘among healers’, ‘among dps’.

Widow is a dps. I compared her to your other dps. That was precisely the point of listing those others. Now you are bringing -how- they deal damage into it. And that’s not part of any performance statistics. Which are your bible of balance.

Since you’re having a hard time; here’s the point that’s been proven by your own claims of the only thing that objectively shows balance is performance averages.

They aren’t the be all, end all. Any more than pick/win rate. There are things that the performance statistics don’t show.

And that’s precisely why Widow was the example. Precisely because they -don’t- show her balance fully. Contrary to your claim about them.

It’s all of it, in varying measures. Pick/win rate, performance averages, and things beyond even those. Like synergies, non-damage abilities with playmaking power. Etc.

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I feel like all tanks have to be afraid of a vast majority of heroes with considerably less health than them.

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I don’t think it is just the meta

He is able to do way too much

He is a sniper class (1 shot capability, no damage fall off)
He has vertical and horizontal mobility
Burst damage high enough to melt tanks

What is his weakness right now? Why would you not pick him?

Where do the other characters in the dps class compete with that?

I honestly don’t believe his viability or pick rate will be impacted much by the existence of Bridgette

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He is a projectile sniper (no damage falloff but not hitscan like Ana or widow)

Burst damage high enough to melt bad tanks/in bad teams

Inconsistent at longer ranges.

Inconsistency, lack of sustain, weak in close range (vulnerable to flankers and duellists)

Widow is better for long ranged picks
Soldier is more consistent and has sustain (plus team heals)
Mccree duels better, has hard CC
Genji is more mobile, good at kill securing
Doomfist is more mobile and more tanky
Tracer is more mobile horizontally and has insane duelling potential
Sombra is a niche pick, won’t go into that
Junkrat has more consistent aerial denial and aoe damage. Also trap is form of cc (albeit unreliable!)
Pharah has more aoe, verticality
Reaper torb Mei symm… eh not in a good spot. Mei has wall I guess? Niche pick.

Every dps is unique

Hanzo offers burst mid range dps with good mobility.

I suppose there’s not much we can do to convince each other. Time will tell I guess…

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Yeah. Hanzo is completely broken OP at the moment.

Bastion (Not damage Boosted) currently does MAX 525 damage in a second, and that only at Short-Medium range.
Reaper (headshots, not boosted) does MAX 560 damage in a second, and that’s only at Point-blank to Short range.
Hanzo (headshots, not boosted) does Max 640 damage in a second and that’s at any range that he can consistently hit shots.

Not to mention that Storm Arrow still generates ult charge at the same rate (more or less?) as normal shots. Saw a video today of Taimou on Youtube abusing this.

Hanzo is now a much more powerful version of McCree

Firstly it’s not 640 DPS.

(80 x 6 x 2) / 1.67 = 574.8

Secondly it’s:

  1. On a cooldown
  2. Assuming you headshot everything
  3. Projectile

I guarantee you headshotting all 6 shots is more difficult than headshotting as reaper in pointblank.

McCree does 402.98 DPS with fan the hammer, requires no aim with flashbang
His pistol is 280 DPS hitscan! So OP please nerf! He has a stun to guarantee headshot too! His ult is auto aim and requires no skill to one shot the entire team REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

See I can do the same thing.

Stop posting hyperbole.

Inconsistent at longer ranges.

I can agree that he is more consistant as a midrange sniper, than a long range sniper. HOWEVER - is that a significant weakness in this game? How many battles are decided by the long range fight? How many characters are effective and consistent at long range?
Since he has no damage fall off, he still has the capability for long range fighting power too, even if it is inconsistent.

Inconsistency, lack of sustain, weak in close range (vulnerable to flankers and duellists)

I don’t really believe that you can call 21k average damage per game inconsistent.
Alot of dps don’t have self sustain - that is why the healer class exists.
I am finding he has become quite powerful close range with Storm Arrow and the increased projectile speed - SA making him very strong close range seems to be a common complaint.

So while I would have agreed with you about these weaknesses for a pre-rework Hanzo, I feel that the re-work significantly reduced them.

Widow is better for long ranged picks

Ok, however Widow is doing half the damage that Hanzo is right now, so is this really that much of an advantage?

Soldier is more consistent and has sustain (plus team heals)

Soldier does less damage, and has less kills is that really more consistent?
His self/team heal is good I agree

Mccree duels better, has hard CC

Since the rework on Hanzo - I don’t agree on the dueling better - they both have very high duel capabilities.
McCree has CC - but he lacks both strong mobility, and strong burst damage potential

Genji is more mobile, good at kill securing

Hanzo literally has a on shot KO capability on his primary. He is much better at securing kills than Genji

Doomfist is more mobile and more tanky

Doomfist has to get into the enemy team - and is normally taking high risk to get a kill; hence the more mobile and tanky nature of his kit - he is a melee range fighter for the most part.

Tracer is more mobile horizontally and has insane duelling potential

Tracer is another close range fighter, so it is normal to consider her mobility should be better.

Junkrat has more consistent aerial denial and aoe damage. Also trap is form of cc (albeit unreliable!)

Snipers are area deniers. Although Hanzo doesn’t do AoE, his damage is actually higher than junkrats.

Pharah has more aoe, verticality

Hanzo still does more damage than Pharah

Every dps is unique

Yes, for the most part the heroes are unique. A lot of them have different uses and different counters.

I argue though that Hanzo does not have enough weaknesses to balance out his strengths at the moment, something needs to be toned down.

He honestly outclasses every dps at the moment, I don’t think it is a good thing for the game for a hero to be this OP - it wasn’t good when it was Mercy, and it isn’t good now with Hanzo.

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Every Hanzo I’ve ever died to was spam down the choke until they finally get a lucky kill in a 1v1 I promise you they are all dog trash miss every shot no matter how good they are as long as you have basic dodge knowledge but I just hate projectile heroes overall literally made for spam and luck that someone moves perfectly where you fired

Fair enough, 575 damage. Apologies for going with the value someone else here gave, I should have checked first.

McCree’s Fan the Hammer DPS is 310.5, but the max damage he can actually do in a second with it is 270. And that’s only at less than 18m, AND if you can land a full clip, which at any range other than point-blank is practically impossible. FAR more difficult than Hanzo landing 6 shots of storm arrow.
Also, Fan the Hammer doesn’t headshot.

His Max damage in a second with his pistol is 280 (Headshots, not boosted). Hanzo’s, like you said is 574.8…

they were spamming down a choke and you still went in alone and without any protection anyway?

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It’s so easy for you to pullout a random reason, I never went alone they literally keep firing like junkrat and when you need to deal with the other 5 enemies or help your team you simply forget about Hanzo and die because eventually his luck will add up after 99 arrows missed

Right, this is kind of an oxymoron no?

Widow getting key picks is a core strategy in maps such as Junkertown and King’s Row.

Exactly one. Widow outclasses Hanzo in this regard, which addresses your claim that Hanzo outclasses every DPS in every way.

Then we are in agreement. The capability to, but it’s not effective, much like the other medium ranged heroes in the game.

When I said inconsistent I meant damage when it’s needed most. Sometimes things just don’t go your way and the projectile misses when you need to get a pick urgently.

My point exactly. Soldier is useful if you require a DPS class with self sustain. The meta just doesn’t call for that right now.

You would find that he still struggles against Brigitte, Reinhardt and Genji at close range, storm arrow or no. Even Mccree if he gets his stun off. It’s a strong ability, but to say he outclasses every DPS in close range is a strong claim to make.

I disagree. Scatter was stronger up close than Storm arrows.

He’s stronger against heroes that try to close the gap because he can escape and extend the gap again, turning it into a mid range fight where he shines. This is not the same as being strong in close range.

As we already agreed, Widow is weak to barriers, and Widows have a tendency to outright kill their target. This reinforces my point that Hanzo is performing well because of the meta, not inspite of it.

Again, Soldier does poorly against barriers, and he does not have the ability to take highground rapidly to look for angles that the barriers do not cover. It cannot be argued that hitscan is less consistent than projectiles. You know this.

Fair enough. I would say it’s down to skill and where Hanzo is. If there is highground nearby he would have a better showing than Mccree. Maybe.

If it was in close quarters, there’s nothing like flashbang FTH for 295 dmg in 0.67s.

I meant it in the context of finishing kills. You will find that as Hanzo there’s no easy way to finish off a low hp target that’s a fair distance away.

Exactly. Once again, the meta does not call for doomfist, and thus reflecting his low stats.

As above. The amount of armour severely limits her strength in this meta.

Once again, Hanzo is not a sniper. You also fail to account for the fact that Junkrat is able to deny areas outside his line of sight, or presence entirely (trap) Damage is correlated to area denial, but is not the be all end all yardstick.

Damage does not tell the full story. Pharah’s unique movement allows her to attack from odd angles.

You could be right. Time will tell.

He outclasses every DPS in this meta. That is an important distinction to make. It is also unfair to compare Valk 1.0 mercy to Hanzo. Being able to instantly undo 2 picks while being nigh upon unkillable is in a completely different realm of imbalance.

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i like that his E ability does more damage than most ults. lol

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The best Hanzos in the game have weapon accuracy in the the high-20’s. It’s the nature of his projectile having to try and predict where your target is going next, lead your shot and compensate for height. Yes, lower-level players will get lucky, spammy kills occasionally…but his entire kit is certainly not luck based.

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Id argue that without luck hanzo would be almost unplayable which i know its impossible to completely cancel out luck

Ey no worries

I took 270 / 0.67 = 402.98. I’m going by the assumption the target will be dead and there’s no need to reload. How you arrive at 310.5 though? Curious.

Yes which brings this to what I’ve been saying: Stop comparing the two abilities, and stop comparing the two heroes because they fulfill different niches.

And that ability has a cooldown, is projectile based and highly telegraphed. (He glows bright red and crackles!)

It actually doesn’t matter how anyone “views” stats.

That is how stats work, there is nothing subjective about it.

You are constricting the sample size and intentionally promoting inaccurate stats via skew. That is a clear cut bias.

It doesn’t matter what tier you find has the most “optimal play”. You are purposefully modifying statistics to be inaccurate. Not only that, the inaccurate statistics for the argument, is actually showing Hanzo as working as intended anyway. The difference here is, I am not a hypocrite. I don’t support bias even if it does support my claim.

It is impossible that Widow takes more skill. Hitscan is the most basic and skill void hit detection methods in regards to aiming. It is point and click, there is zero travel time. That is not arguable. The only real skill Widow takes is positioning. The skill to aim with Widow can be gained from practicing with ANY game out there that has point and click, this means it doesn’t even have to be a FPS…

Hanzo is projectile based, and his projectile velocity even post buff is still not even close to being emulated hitscan. Therefore he has to account for travel time, gravity, movement prediction of enemy, and movement prediction relative to his own movement in regards to time to target. etc. Hanzo has to worry about positioning even more than Widow due to having a short effective range. Hanzo does not have a tool to alert him to flanking when perched. Wall climbing also makes Hanzo an easier target than being on the ground, whereas Widows grapple is a fast movement that is multilateral.

Lastly, that is how skill works. That is working as intended. It doesn’t matter what you want or think. The way you want doesn’t work. If Soldier 76 had the same maximum potential as Hanzo, with the skill floors being the same, he would be factually overpowered.

If a hero takes less skill input to achieve the same maximum input as a hero that requires more skill input, then that makes the lesser skill requirement hero a complete upgrade over the latter, and ergo completely removes any logical reasoning for the higher skilled hero to exist in the first place.

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Blizzard has and will continue to balance the game looking at upper tier statistics, and I agree with that. Therefore, they should indeed be looking at master and grandmaster tier, so must agree with Maniclings there-grandmaster stats are absolutely the right place to start when looking at balancing.

Having said that, all that may be needed is a 15-25% reduction in ult rate and storm arrows down to a volley of 5, or maybe 4 as an extreme. Everything else is spot on.