Handicapping Competitive Play With MMR is Wrong

[Quarters-11687]

@Orrot-1300

@Quarters-11687

The burden of proof is on the handicapping believers

Other than showing you that MMR exists, is hidden and is not 1:1 equate to MMR as MMR and SR have separate but important differences in their algorithms.

No one’s denying that MMR exists. In fact, I just showed a recent video featuring Jeff Kaplan himself explaining that MMR ranges from -3 to +3 (actually you can go slightly below -3 to slightly above +3).

@Orrot-1300

Jeff “it’s possible to win a match and not gain any MMR. We make it so that if you win a match, you always gain SR” -‘Overwatch Forums’

This shows us that for a given SR an MMR might be LOWER or HIGHER than the digestible SR we are given.

It might be only ~50 to 100 SR equivalent difference, but that alone tells you that there are people that sit at an SR that are MMR wise Better or worse than someone at the same SR.

Yes, and there were situations where this legitimately happened. If you watched all GM streamers during Seasons 2-3, you can see them gain a legit 2 SR on a win without the bugged SR gains. That was because matchmaking was looser at that time and many times, there were games where you got a very high GM on one team with Diamonds and low Masters as teammates vs teams of mid-Masters, in particular when they played at non-peak times when the rest of the GM playerbase were not playing.

That being said, do you really think that a Plat player at 2600 whose entire team is also at that rank, taking on a team of all 2600s, can gain 25-30 SR while NOT gaining any MMR at all? A ~50-100 “difference” is literally a matter of 2-4 games, and MMR isn’t even that in the first place. Do you think there exists players with a “difference” of what would amount to 400 or more?

@Orrot-1300

The burden now shifts to you to point out where they explicitly counter this and state that MMR is exactly SR.

No. I’m still waiting on you or Cuthbert to show us the line where Blizzard states that they handicap “good” players with “bad” players.

Show us the line/lines in this topic:

Overwatch Forums

Mainly this topic because this is his SOLE “evidence” of “handicapping” and it’s non-existent at best.

[Jorlan-11595]

No. I’m still waiting on you or Cuthbert to show us the line where Blizzard states that they handicap “good” players with “bad” players.

See patent quoted above:

the scoring engine may dynamically adjust one or more coefficients to match the player in a game that will improve the player’s performance. For example, the player may be matched with easier opponents, matched with better teammates,

[Quarters-11687]

@Jorlan-11595

@Quarters-11687

No. I’m still waiting on you or Cuthbert to show us the line where Blizzard states that they handicap “good” players with “bad” players.

See patent quoted above:

@Jorlan-11595

the scoring engine may dynamically adjust one or more coefficients to match the player in a game that will improve the player’s performance. For example, the player may be matched with easier opponents, matched with better teammates,

So why didn’t it kick in for this player?

Overwatch Forums

Or why didn’t it kick in for MallSanta when that situation blew up on the old forums?

The patent you reference has everything to do with microtransactions. Are you telling me that they would have stayed at their ranks if they bought lootboxes?

You still need to address the deranking and boosting services. Also the fact there are different ranks in the game and that there are players in all different ranks.

[Orrot-1300]

Blizzard states that they handicap “good” players with “bad” players.

“Good” and “Bad” players are relative to the match itself. The very fact that the system is designed to make 50/50 matches is the method to which the MMR makes a match where each side is equal. This is handicapping.

That being said, do you really think that a Plat player at 2600 whose entire team is also at that rank, taking on a team of all 2600s

Your bias is in thinking all 12 of the people at 2600 are of equal MMR.

A ~50-100 “difference” is literally a matter of 2-4 games, and MMR isn’t even that in the first place. Do you think there exists players with a “difference” of what would amount to 400 or more?

People on the forums talk about 8 game streaks, thats 200 in one session. Add to that the factor of 50/50 may push you further and further away just on coin flips and the fact that streaks occur naturally. It is not unfathomable to state that someone could be ~400 off their base over the course of a few bad days.

Mainly this topic because this is his SOLE “evidence” of “handicapping” and it’s non-existent at best.

You are too stuck on this one topic that was quoted at the beginning of all this. Just because Cuthbert used this as the original springboard, doesn’t mean “handicapping” is non existent.

Though it clearly states the 50/50 match making. You just don’t like that quote.

[Quarters-11687]

Blizzard states that they handicap “good” players with “bad” players.

“Good” and “Bad” players are relative to the match itself. The very fact that the system is designed to make 50/50 matches is the method to which the MMR makes a match where each side is equal. This is handicapping.

That being said, do you really think that a Plat player at 2600 whose entire team is also at that rank, taking on a team of all 2600s

Your bias is in thinking all 12 of the people at 2600 are of equal MMR.

A ~50-100 “difference” is literally a matter of 2-4 games, and MMR isn’t even that in the first place. Do you think there exists players with a “difference” of what would amount to 400 or more?

People on the forums talk about 8 game streaks, thats 200 in one session. Add to that the factor of 50/50 may push you further and further away just on coin flips and the fact that streaks occur naturally. It is not unfathomable to state that someone could be ~400 off their base over the course of a few bad days.

Mainly this topic because this is his SOLE “evidence” of “handicapping” and it’s non-existent at best.

You are too stuck on this one topic that was quoted at the beginning of all this. Just because Cuthbert used this as the original springboard, doesn’t mean “handicapping” is non existent.

Though it clearly states the 50/50 match making. You just don’t like that quote.

I’m not sure what you want with matchmaking. We keep going over the entire 50/50 semantics. I asked this multiple times already, but do you think it’s acceptable to have matches where you have a 6-stack of Diamonds and up taking on a full team of solo-queueing Plats? Before you tell me that I’m strawmanning Cuthbert’s arguments, Cuthbert was the first to strawman Scott Mercer’s arguments. And going by some of the other posters on this forum, it seems like there are a lot of people that really do want to rank up to higher ranks but do so by playing stacked matches in their favor rather than playing with and against people of whatever rank they currently are in.

And yes, people deal with winning and losing streaks with matchmaking. You’re playing with and against other human beings. I’m not sure what you’re supposed to be expecting, if you think everyone should be able to “rank up” or if you honestly think that Blizzard intentionally “handicaps” players rather than people honestly trying their best to work with other people despite their differences.

Maybe instead of thinking that Blizzard intentionally gave you bad (or good) teammates for winning (or losing) too much, try working with other people, and use VOD reviews to honestly see what went wrong.

[Kapoof-11797]

Reporting in.

I don’t play Support often. But i decided to queue up with my support duo partner and try it out. So, we’re both supports all the sudden.

We really surprised that matchmaker! Which usually just tosses the worst support it can find on our team to balance out my duo partner, who’s a great support. Can’t have a great 2nd support, even though they are out there, or it wouldn’t be an “even match”.

Long story short, we won 4 in a row. Easiest games in ages. Know why? Becasue we surprised the matchmaker, which just gave us the typical games. We are better than that, so it was easy.

Then, exactly as we predicted, the system caught on and figured we needed a thrower in our team, then a leaver.

Suddenly, two auto losses.

And that’s how Blizz thinks they can force even matches. By having the system find horrible teammates to balance out any anomaly.

So yeah. It’s in line with exactly what we’ve seen for 4 years. Handicapping matches, holding players back from ranking up too fast, allowing idiots to ruin people’s games.

By the way… the dead giveaway is longer queues. We had very quick queues at first, because the game didn’t know what to make of us being a support duo. Now that it wants to balance things out, it has to search harder to find idiots for us to play with. Always happens.

Edit: Wow. Yest another crap team. Three in a row, and i KNOW the reason is because we too too big, too often. Unbeilvable how fast this matchmaker canceled us out. We mix it up, take it by surprise. It sees that it’s “unfair” cancels us out within 4 games.

What SHOULD happen is… we rank up!
Instead, we’re artificially stomped down by the MATCHMAKER.

Horrible idea, Blizz. Glad your game is dead.

[Jorlan-11595]

Or why didn’t it kick in

Occasional games =/= all games. You are intentionally dense on these matters. So yes it kicked in, but doesn’t stop climbing or deranking.

So please, stop being so dense.

I asked this multiple times already, but do you think it’s acceptable to have matches

Mmr, not sr, is used for matchmaking, so you made an invalid question. This is why it is ignored.

[BigSadPanda-11507]

Some players like you see no harm in duplicitous systems like this, but that’s because you’re casual gamers. Players who really care about fair competition, real competitive players, should care about hidden handicapping.

By handicapping you mean matching people of similar levels of play that lessen the chance you will absolutely ROLL them? Without MMR the game would be worthless competitively. Only players who aren’t looking for ACTUAL competition are against a system that gives you just that. Get good.

[Orrot-1300]

I’m not sure what you want with matchmaking.

Personally a match maker that is at least semi transparent. Walk into a 2400 game that is 2400 and not manipulated with a hidden metric. Let people rise and fall when they are better or worse.

We keep going over the entire 50/50 semantics. I asked this multiple times already, but do you think it’s acceptable to have matches where you have a 6-stack of Diamonds and up taking on a full team of solo-queueing Plats?

No, this scenario is NOT acceptable. the 6 stack of plats should go against a 6 stack of plats. You see, being able to stack and then go into comp should put you against stacks. This part of the match maker is pretty clear as they stated explicitely that they try to do that.

This is about the 50/50 metric you also stated is focused on. Here’s the cards. If you are at the rank you are meant to be and in a game rank match with similar rank you should naturally be at a 50/50.

What I would want is that when you are not at the rank you should be, the system not try to force that match 50/50 because the further away from your rank you should affect it, good or bad. This is also why I support a stagnant SR when you do not improve or slip. I know psychologically this will make some not feel as good not seeing improvement/movement. But, its technically competitive. Thus inherently to rank you among the population.

Maybe instead of thinking that Blizzard intentionally gave you bad (or good) teammates for winning (or losing) too much, try working with other people, and use VOD reviews to honestly see what went wrong.

Not entirely sure this was directed at me. But, I have done vods. I do not go into a game and win/lose and scream “my team mates sucked.” I play for fun. Along the same token, I also run into competitive to try and win every match. Right now, I am silver, and I suck.

[Cuthbert-11649]

No, this scenario is NOT acceptable. the 6 stack of plats should go against a 6 stack of plats. You see, being able to stack and then go into comp should put you against stacks. This part of the match maker is pretty clear as they stated explicitely that they try to do that.

This is about the 50/50 metric you also stated is focused on. Here’s the cards. If you are at the rank you are meant to be and in a game rank match with similar rank you should naturally be at a 50/50.

What I would want is that when you are not at the rank you should be, the system not try to force that match 50/50 because the further away from your rank you should affect it, good or bad. This is also why I support a stagnant SR when you do not improve or slip. I know psychologically this will make some not feel as good not seeing improvement/movement. But, its technically competitive. Thus inherently to rank you among the population.

Totally agree with this. Matches should be based strictly on rank. That is probably only possible through solo-queue, but if that is the case then grouping should be limited to Quick Play mode.

[NoxiousFox-11720]

The matchmaker has to do this idiotic sort of matchmaking because Blizzard doesn’t want to fund their anti-cheat team. Blizzard knows your mmr, but they still stack despite that because they don’t have a handle down on the humanized bots, and don’t wanna actually deal with them. I run into hard cheats daily independent of the SR, so it looks like Blizzard just flags some dedicated players into the poop tier matches with them, to babygate them away from new players.

Really looks like if you have a lot of hours clocks in weekly, Blizzard decides a few cheaters won’t make you quit. It looks like they toss them around against who is least likely to quit in mind.

[NoxiousFox-11720]

I have proof now I ran into an aimbotter last night. I went back and recorded a replay from the cheater’s perspective after I realized his IGN was the same as a discord user tag on a discord aimbot server.

Discord proof:
cdn. discordapp. com/attachments/657343529902669844/658444638872404003/unknown.png
cdn. discordapp. com/attachments/657343529902669844/658444803469737984/unknown.png
cdn. discordapp. com/attachments/632931249995907112/658419034294976538/Capture.PNG

That is what a humanized aimbot looks like when they’re playing lowkey enough to not be mass reported.

Btw, it was a cheater vs cheater match, the enemy had one too.

[anon8911186]

Btw, it was a cheater vs cheater match, the enemy had one too.

That’s basically the ultimate proof of this theory, that handicapping occurs and that game goes at great lengths to make it 50-50. Same thing with smurfs being matched vs smurfs. It should not happen. That’s the proof that handicapping occurs and that game rapidly gauges MMR for someone despite them not actually being at their correct SR

[Kapoof-11797]

That’s basically the ultimate proof of this theory, that handicapping occurs and that game goes at great lengths to make it 50-50. Same thing with smurfs being matched vs smurfs. It should not happen. That’s the proof that handicapping occurs and that game rapidly gauges MMR for someone despite them not actually being at their correct SR

Yes. And at launch, smurfs didn’t exist. Throwing wasn’t wide spread. Maybe the system works in a perfect world, where everyone is trying, and everyone is not secretly on their 5th account.

At this point though, they should give up on the idea and go with more personal SR. I believe people want to see their rating reflect THEIR game play. For instance, i just dropped 50 SR because two games in a row we had tanks that had absolutely no clue what they were doing.

Did i put 1500 hours into this game, learn as much as i could, practice my aim, make simple callouts… just to have some random trash tank ruin my SR? Blizzard has to understand that is extremely frustrating. My SR reflects THEIR crappy play tonight. This type of thing is the reason for all the toxicity.

People want to log on, get quick games, play, see how they did. Try to rank up. The harder Blizz tries to CONTROL the entire experience with role queue, handicapping matches, etc… the less you feel in control of your own rank. That’s just not fun.

[thebaronofsd-1654]

We really surprised that matchmaker! Which usually just tosses the worst support it can find on our team to balance out my duo partner, who’s a great support. Can’t have a great 2nd support, even though they are out there, or it wouldn’t be an “even match”.

Long story short, we won 4 in a row. Easiest games in ages. Know why? Becasue we surprised the matchmaker, which just gave us the typical games. We are better than that, so it was easy.

this can occur because the matchmaker hasn’t been updated to account for 2-2-2. it was originally designed when everyone could flex to their (perceived) strongest role.

now that we have 2-2-2 the matchmaker is throwing high MMR supports with low MMR tanks/dps up against a team with high MMR DPS and low MMR tanks/supports (as an example).

this is exacerbating the game to game inconsistencies.

[Cuthbert-11649]

Yes. And at launch, smurfs didn’t exist. Throwing wasn’t wide spread. Maybe the system works in a perfect world, where everyone is trying, and everyone is not secretly on their 5th account.

At this point though, they should give up on the idea and go with more personal SR. I believe people want to see their rating reflect THEIR game play. For instance, i just dropped 50 SR because two games in a row we had tanks that had absolutely no clue what they were doing.

Did i put 1500 hours into this game, learn as much as i could, practice my aim, make simple callouts… just to have some random trash tank ruin my SR? Blizzard has to understand that is extremely frustrating. My SR reflects THEIR crappy play tonight. This type of thing is the reason for all the toxicity.

People want to log on, get quick games, play, see how they did. Try to rank up. The harder Blizz tries to CONTROL the entire experience with role queue, handicapping matches, etc… the less you feel in control of your own rank. That’s just not fun.

Strongly agree with all of this. Smurf accounts would not be such a major thing, without the handicapping (Match Making Rating) system, and people trying to circumvent that system. Think of Blizzard’s business interest, in players being compelled to buy new accounts for what they feel is a ‘fresh start.’

[Bøllebank-21627]

Competitive system is basicly very simple. If you play enough and play to win, you are in a rank where you belong by your skill, period.

No, it has been reported and also demonstrated many times over by streamers that when you play the same hero on 2 accounts they get stuck in brackets very far apart. Also the practice of buying a new game id when you’re stuck in a low bracket would not be a thing if it didn’t work. There is nothing simple or natural about the matching system, period.

[Xion-21787]

No, it has been reported and also demonstrated many times over by streamers that when you play the same hero on 2 accounts they get stuck in brackets very far apart.

Ok if it was reported and demonstrated many time give me one link where it is demonstrated. It should be easy. I can link you many streams where people do exactly that, climbing on different accounts to their own elo from low ranks.

[Thorny-11952]

The MMR/SR Handicapping Thread

Okay, this topic keeps getting brought up. People say they’re on a ‘forced losing streak’ or being kept down. Others say ‘git gud and climb’. The truth is, the latter is more accurate. Regardless of whether or not handicapping is in play, if you get better you will climb. This is not up for debate, if you want someone to support the idea that you’re being held back by an invisible hand that wants you and only you to stay your rank, it won’t happen here. That said, the ideas are not mutuall…

Please view this thread for a rational and logical approach to how handicapping is likely implemented, and some analysis of it’s effects and results.

[Cats-21872]

It’s not tinfoil hat stuff while Blizzard actively tries to hide it from us.