Hammond and Torbjorn's new ultimate + a mercy revert


#32

Theres impactful and overly strong. There are other ways to make mercy fun without having rez. Stop thinking in the term of must have rez and youll come up with a million different things. Overheals, Burst heals, shooting and healing at the same time, immunities, in-vulnerabilities, buffs, boosts, better flying and delayed healing traps. Theres a million different things besides something that didnt work once


#33

isnt that the selling point of the game? although when i bought it fun was also a priority of the devs.

if you think i only play mercy, im not going to do that to my team, when i could play moira who is much better design wise, plays well is way too good for the effort put in, or ana who at a basic level is very easy to play.

ive mained all roles, and i like all roles, im a flex player by nature.





we have been brainstorming for a year around about.


#34

Well, in that case I’d just let Mercy take a little rest and play something else. They’ll probably fix her eventually. But it could be ages - I mean, Ana was dead so long that I picked her up, played her in QP long enough to make her my most played hero, gave up all hope that she’d ever be fixed or useful, dropped her, and moved on to the point of not even wanting to play her again, between the two points in the game she was actually viable in competitive. That’s how long she was bad. My entire play cycle happened while she was allowed to be useless.

Also, I’d expect they to do something totally different from player suggestions if they do remake her. Devs almost always avoid following player suggestions because they don’t want the players hounding them for credit or accusing them of being unoriginal.


#35

it did work… no one gave a damn about it untill it got invul, everyone loves to just forget about the 6 month period ana dominated the meta, everyone loves to forget no one complained at beta (when it was even more OP) everyone seems to forget that it had a negative winrate untill it got invulnerability. they could have kept res and tweaked it, removed invuln added LoS, a cast time. literally anything. but people got there way and now we have Valkyrie.


someone made a concept for that was literally moira a good while before her release. i didnt once see them “hounding them for credit.”


core concept is literally the same


#36

I’ll be honest, I don’t think most of the remakes people suggest would actually be fun.

The only reason I can see anyone liked Mercy 1.0 was that she had a ridiculously overpowered ult (on an otherwise underpowered hero that balanced out to average overall) that gave people a power rush. The rest of the character is either unchanged or improved (ignoring the 50 hp/s nerf for now). Either the new ult has to be similar, in which case it’ll just make everyone else angry (overpowered ults are no fun to play into and are really hard to balance) or it has to be weak and her power has to be redistributed, in which case she’ll be basically the same as she is now.

I think the ultimate core problem of Mercy is that her basic gameplay model of heal-beaming is just really boring. It can’t be fixed. Giving her really lopsided mechanics, like her previous overpowered ult, isn’t a good design either, it’s just a design that’s unpleasant to play into rather than play.


#37

all other healers play the same way tbh, also name me 1 ultimate that is genuinely enjoyable to play agains.

not “rdiculously overpowered” but game changing. it actually felt like you were doing something, that’s valkyries isssue, it might aswell be renamed.


all other healers play the same way tbh, also name me 1 ultimate that is genuinely enjoyable to play agains.

not “rdiculously overpowered” but game changing. it actually felt like you were doing something, that’s valkyries isssue, it might aswell be renamed.

her ult contributes nothing but a bad orisa ult, unless she whips out that pistol, which for some reason gets buffed, although she’s a pacifist combat medic.

also valkyrie strips her of all of her weaknesses, removing the challenge involved with dicipline and prioritization. mercy was fun, because it was a hustle that led to a glory moment, try to stay alive wiht a target on your back, and if you succeed you’re rewarded by bringing maybe 2-3 people back… let’s be honest, when we say that mass res is op, we think of a 5 man res, but how many did you ever see? honestly?
mass-riptire is so OP its unfair that it can just wipe 6 people in a 10m radius!!! rawr! unfair! anti-fun! some nice buzzwords that peopel like to use for mass res, but really. when did you ever see a 5 man res, cos i saw maybe 4.

this is what it feels like the devs are doing to mercy, sombra, reinhard, and ana players

it’s timestamped btw.

that scene displays 2 things
“welcome to hell, it’s not as hot as you thought it’d be, ha!”

and “WHY ARE YOU DRINKING YOURE PREGNANT”
“becase im smoking, and i dont do one without the other”

drinking while pregnant is proven to be a bad for the baby, the baby being the aformentioned heros and drinking being nerfs/bad choices, and the smoking is leaving them all in the dark. they arent Just nerfing the wrong aspects of these heroes, they’re ignoring allmost all discussion that goes on about them.

both are bad ideas and hurt the baby/playerbase.

“welcome to hell” because that’s the forums right now.


#38

What? No, they don’t. Healing with Ana requires aim and is a constant exercise of skill. Moira has to juggle healing, orbs, and damage. Lucio, Brigitte, and Zenyatta heal passively, but they’re always engaging the enemy.

As far as playing into ultimate, most of them are fine to play into. There are only a few that feel really cheap to me. Dragonblade is too good, Meteor punch is a totally free kill on some heroes, EMP is probably also too strong. But mass rez was much worse than any of them. I remember how I felt about it at the time… it always felt spectacularly cheap.


#39

its a battle of prioritizing who to heal and when. ana can just shoot tanks all day, but if she doesnt take a break from healing the almost full hp tank a low hp squishy might die, it’s the same for the other main healers, especially mercy, who heals the slowest out of them all.

i should clarify, i meant to say main healers.

to have 1 2, or 3 people come back? i can imagine, but she doesnt do much for the rest of the game no doubt. her heals have always been slower than any of the other main healers, and ressurect balanced that out. same goes for ana having an amazing kit and an ult entirely for someone else, and moira having an ult that gives her the prospect of an amazing impact.

sure it felt cheap, but her heals arent as good as ana, who can pocket someone at infinite range for something like 85 hp/s or moira’s crazy amounts of AOE heals and dmg potential.


#40

Or they are making a few area denial ults because it’s something OW doesn’t really have yet.
Sure they have zoning ults like DVa bomb, HighNoon, Torbs ult now etc. but not really an are denial ultimate. Hammond was the first hero to have an ult that literally blocks off a certain area and makes it unpassable. Torb now going to be the second hero.
My guess is, that they are adding new stuff OW doesn’t have yet. Torbs ultimate also works like an AOE damage area, which is very common for heroes to have in MOBAs. Plus it really fits the character very well, I always thought it’s weird that Torb can drink lava, shoot lava in his gun but not directly spill lava on the floor!

Mass rez is highly unlikely to come back. They would never make a decision which would get the rage of most of the community (everyone who doesn’t play Mercy) against them. It would be business-wise very unclever and unprofitable if they do so. Many people would stop playing. Yes you’d have the Mercy mains coming back to play, but it’s still a vast minority if you’d compare it against everyone who would leave (lots of people who don’t play Mercy).
People are anyways leaving this game so it makes no sense for them to revert Mercy when the vast majority of the playerbase wanted mass-rez gone. The same way they will never bring back scatter or Hog 1.0.
What I see them do is maybe rework Mercys ultimate in the future, because believe it or not, they actually listen to their playerbase. While it may take a while (they are working on Hog rn), they will do it eventually. I think heroes like Torb, Sombra and Hog are a bit higher up their priority right now, which is good. They have been trash since over 1 year now, Torb since forever.


#41

the whole reason i bought this game was because they had simple heroes for people who’d never played FPS games to pick up and be good at. seriously. the allure was heroes like mercy pharah and soldier. mercy specifically as it required minial aim, having that hero be boring is not a good move. they need to do something.

not everyone who didnt play mercy hated mass res, it was honestly fine, no one cared about it untill it got invuln when ana was added.

those 2 things were genuinely unbalanced and unhealthy and offerend minimal counterplay.

and instead of tweaking and adding counterplay back they removed mass res lmao

highly debatable. they listen when high level players whine about “hide and res” resulting in gutting mercy’s kit

Torb’s rework is literally on the PTR, playable right now. Sombra is a new issue, and roadhog is being looked at right now.

mercy has been a problem for 12 months. and they think they were “successfull” in making mercy the only negative winrate healer. nothing is being done, they only chose to respond to thank you posts, or posts of accusations. a mercy post is the number 1 most liked post right now, and it’s still not had any dev activity same for a 1 and a half year old bastion post.


#42

Not really the first two. Just the first two that do it in prolonged periods. D.va ult can be seen as area denial and a well timed one used to make mass rez useless back in the day


#43

Depending on circumstances, mass rez could be made useless, if players died in graviton combo: almost any ult(even tracer’s bomb) would re-wipe them again.


#44

This. This couldve been a cool change to mass rez wherein rezzed teammates would respawn where mercy is standing allowing more counterplay and what not


#45

Mercy still is a simple hero to play, the rework didn’t change that. The only rework that made a simple hero a bit harder to play was Symm because they removed the lock on. Dva, Winston, Rein, Soldier, Brigitte and Moira are unchanged in terms of easiness.
Plus the fun thing you cannot just say as a fact. Fun is always subjective, while you had fun with mass-rez, I only felt stress and anxiety with it.

That might be true, but those people also didn’t mind it gone. Mass-rez was abused by a lot of players and I understand the frustration non-Mercy players felt.
Saying “no one cared until the invul.” is quite an understatement. I know a lot of people who hated Mercys ult since beta. I know a lot of people who say mass-rez has no place in a hero shooter and MOBA and no other game of that type has something similar like mass-rez.

while scatter was per-se not unbalanced, many people abused it’s mechanics to play cheap like many people did with Mercy. Scatter got removed because people didn’t use it as intended, to finish low HP enemies behind corners. Hanzos shot at the feet to get a cheap kill. They coul’ve tweaked it in a lot of ways too, like making it deal damage only after it has bounced off somewhere, doesn’t apply to feet hitboxes etc.
Maybe they tried balancing it. Maybe they tried all the suggestions that were written here and their data showed that Mercy was underperforming, died too often etc.
Mass-rez had also not a lot of counterplay when you were plaing a mediocre DPS/Tank. Did I kill a Mercy who flew in for a rez a couple of times? Yes, but out of pure luck.
Just see how many times you get away with the aweful slow rez nowadays while literally standing infront of someone. They seldom manage to kill you in time, miss shots, or simply don’t notice you. That’s the average player for you. So how on earth should these people be able to counter something like a mass-rez, even with slow, casttime etc, if you now already get away with the most stupid and suicidal rezzes? Jeff posted a while back that the median is at 2300SR, these people just lack basic teamwork and gamesense to focus and kill Mercy reliably. Plus let’s not forget our console friends where Mercy still remains now the strongest healer, because it’s so darn hard to aim with a controller and kill Mercy with her fast movement and small hitbox.

It hit a few days ago, which means they were working on it since Symms rework. Reworks take time, balancing takes time. They do a lot of internal testing before anything hits PTR. Programming is hard and takes time.

Mercy having a negative winrate is a problem that hasn’t been here for 12 months, only since the latest support changes. That also only on PC, not console…
If the stats on overbuff are the same than their stats, she will get a buff or a rework.

Yeah the devs choices of where to respond is a bit iffy, you’re right on that point. Bastion being blatantly ignored is just insane.
But I also understand them not making any statements towards Mercy. Like Jeff said in his recent dev update: " We can’t just go somewhere and say something. People will take those words very seriously and if we don’t deliver or make changes, we are getting a lot of harsh feedback and hate". So understandably they don’t say A when they after a while end up deciding B.


#46

thats where it comes from, and i hope you didnt feel actual stress/anxiety jc

it’s evident that mercy players who’ve played both iterations, the majority feel mass res was more rewarding/fun/impactful whilst also being less overpowered that release valk.

if you mean the SR exploit it was removed

i managed to convince a few of my friends that it’s on par with impact with a lot of other ults (pre invuln) its never going to be fun to have your play erased, but its about ult economy and hero prioritisation.

intended deign ould’ve been achieved with ressurect, add LoS so hiding wasnt as effective, and tempo ressing wouldve (even more than it already was) the dominant way to play mercy effictively.

well, the way mass res is always descrbed, after a fight you’ve kileld everyone else, she flies in, THE ONLY TARGET and you dont kill her, that’s on you, you had that second to stun, boop, or kill her but you didnt.



#47

I actually did, so did my friends, 2 of which are Mercy mains. Maybe it comes with our age (we’re late 20s, early 30s) and having stress at work, managing a household and finances is already pressuring enough, so when I want to relax, I don’t want to feel pressured. Which I always did as Mercy, it surely comes from people actually being fing toxic towards old Mercy and putting pressure on Mercy players to not die with rez (that’s where the hiding mentality comes from) and to pull an epic rez off. I never felt that stress/anxiety when I played any other hero. Not Zen, not Ana, not Lucio, not Rein, not Dva. I always felt like it was no biggie when you shattered into the enemy shield, when you tranced to save the tanks (instead waiting for blade), when you accidentially nanoe’d Lucio (BOSTIOOO) and killed nobody with HighNoon (was a miracle when you did). But it was always flame city when you died with rez as Mercy, even if you got solo ulted or spawntrapped. And since she got reworked, I don’t receive a fraction of the abuse I did before. Sure the occasional “0 heals, our Mercy sucks” or the “I need healing” spam after they die, but you always get those people. Now I always get a “thank you” when I rez someone. I don’t feel pressured into rezzing someone either, I don’t feel the pressure to hide away and wait until the ultspam is over.
That’s why I hated it, that’s why my friends hated it.

But where do you take the numbers from? From this forum? It’s evident that this forum is crawling with Mercy mains, always the same making the same topics and always the same 200 upvoting them. The ones who are happy with her don’t come here to debate over her (except a few), they just play the game and enjoy it.
It’s called an echo chamber, where the same few people say the same thing over and over again, upvote eachothers posts and reconfirm their viewpoint. In a forum where there are a lot of them, and the ones not being them not even clicking on the topic and going into the discussion. The forum represents a very, very small portion of the playerbase.

Nope, I am pretty sure if they woul’ve removed it while mass-rez was there, it would’ve not stopped the fact that Mercy players would have gone hiding. I was told constantly to go hide while I played Mercy, even if I didn’t want to. If I didn’t and I’d die, I’d get flamed. If I only got a 1-2 man rez off, I’d get flamed by my teammates. The whole hide mentality didn’t necesseraly originate with Mercy players, rather the majority of players (below diamond) realized that if your Mercy hides in Overtime, your chances of winning increase, as she can swoop in and “reset” by a simple button press.

If it wouldn’t be so effective, how come I managed to climb to the top 10% of the playerbase while hiding? That was before she got the invul. buff btw, before the SR exploit was there, where you actually got less SR when playing Mercy compared to playing Ana.

Like I said before, gamesense is nearly 0 present in ranks below plat (remider: 2300 is the median, 50% of the playerbase is below), only a little present in plat (30% of playerbase). Constant C9, overulting, no target priority, 4DPS, PoTG chasing, Overextending, 2v6ing is normal there. Plus add an average of only 30% accuracy to the pool and 0 CD management and you have the perfect coctail of “not being able to hit or anticipate Mercy rez”. I know I can’t snipe her flying in for a rez (old Mercy), I might have used my flashbang to stop the ulting Genji before, I have to reload right now etc. are all things that can happen too.

I played from ranks silver- high masters. I’ve seen it all. I played on a second DPS account with friends when old Mercy was still a thing. Even with them making me the shot caller (because I was mid diamond on my main acc) and me constantly calling the Mercy, it was usually me who had to spawncamp her in order to hinder her from rezzing. Because in the heat of the moment, my average ranked friends were not able to stop her. Which I honestly understand, it was not easy chasing her, killing her, especially when she got backup from her team.

I agree with this post, yet I still understand why they make no statement towards her. They originally said they are going to revert her when the changes turn out bad. And the people here take it like it was a sentence delivered by god himself, making it a necessity to revert her now, because they feel like the rework was unsuccessful. Eventhough they have posted a thread some while ago that they do not want to revert her and want to further balance her in this direction they chose.


#48

they’re just making it harder on themselves, the OP was a discussion about the counters now present for mass res.

i’d like ANYTHING other than what we have now, there was a reason Valkyrie was scapped in alpha. it shouldn’t be in the game, not now not ever. but it is, and it’s not cute.

for the most part, mercy plays fine, sure, no ones going to live on 50hp/s unless they’re behind cover, and turning into a rock every 30 seconds isnt a good game design, but it’s better than having no mercy at all, it’s still fun to fly around the place, it’s still fun to whip out that pistol, but that’s about it.

she’s still playable, statistically. but she feels clunky and disjointed in her current state.

i’d love to see them make sense of valkyrie, maybe lower the duration and up its stats? Maybe tie it back with res? give res a resource metre filled by healing? anything at all to spice it up, because right now, her skill floor and skill cieling are so close together, there is no point investing time into learning her, as knowledge of her kit nets you no real, tangiable results. like it used to.

i dont hate valkyrie, i dont think it fits the character, and i think theyve stripped what made it enjoyable on release with 0 compensation, and kept the ridiculous charge rate (higher than graviton, a very impactful ultimate).

let me re-iterate, i’d love to see what they can do with valk, right now its just nerf after nerf and they’ve gutted who she was. she feels bad to play while doing her most vital tasks. and i dont think its fair that shes been this way for so long.


#49

I agree with you. There are 100 different ways to make Valkyrie feel better. Personally I’d like to have chain beams removed but a 90hps beam for the duration.

But that’s where we need to put idea towards the devs. The problem is, almost every Mercy thread is about her needing a revert, how everything was better when she had mass-rez and people cussing the devs out. The good threads with improvements to Valk get lost in the mass of revert threads. On 1 suggestive Valkyrie improvement thread come 99 revert thread. And even if you make good suggestions towards improving Valk, you ALWAYS get the same answer: “revert would be better”. It’s tedious for me, it’s most certainly tedious for the devs and mods.

I’m actually pretty sure they will look at Mercy again, after they’ve done looking after their other problem children (Hog, Sombra, Bastion). I’m also pretty sure they will give her a significant buff to her ult to make that feel like it has more impact.

Mercy should not be able to outheal damage coming from 2 or more sources, no healer can. Moira for a while, but as soon as she gets low on resource, teammates die anyways. Plus she has a lot of other drawbacks which hinder her to be a good consistent healer. Ana has to hit shots and reload, so she is usually also not able to outheal a damagesource of 2 or more. I personally thing 55hps would be the perfect middle ground, I anyways see this coming as the next change made to Mercy.

It has always been like this. I know Mercy player feel like old rez took more skill to get off, but in reality this 1:1 applies to rez on CD. I guess everyone has their own opinion about this, but I stopped playing Mercy 1.0 before her rework because I felt like I hit a very low ceiling very early (50hrs) and didn’t see any improvements specific to her (improving in gamesense benefits playing all heroes, not only Mercy). It wasn’t that hard to figure out when to rez or not. Same as it is now, tbh.I think Mercys skill ceiling improved a tiny bit because of the bunny hop with GA and now managing a lower healing output (damn it feels great to keep a 3 tank comp with a Zen as 2nd healer up!).


#50

How about…
No. Mass res was more toxic than Brig
I hope they never bring it back and make sure to tell everyone they never will.


#51

i’d rather that than radio fcking silence.

im sure you’re some form of dps main that thinks its op cos u couldnt kill mercy ay.
there’s no way mass res was really more OP than brig, esecially considering brigs winrate has peaked higher than mercies ever has as well. you fail to realise mercy was a trllpick for 3 seasons (back when seasons were longer than 2 seconds)