Fixing Bastion is kinda easy if you think about it

General Discussion
69

So… I don’t really play Bastion, but I don’t think lack of damage is his problem.

His first problem is that through his rework and nerfs… his Tank mode is the squishiest it’s ever been. I don’t think Blizzard ever intended to make that more frail, so it should give him extra armor like it used to, but like… 50ish because it does still have ironclad.

The other issue that Bastion has is that he isn’t self sufficient. At all. He can do alright when his entire team is babysitting him… but if they don’t, he’s terrible.

To fix that I think they should do one of two things (not both).

Make Self Repair give him 20% more Ironclad regardless of his current form. Truthfully, when his rework dropped I didn’t have a problem with him face tanking a Reaper Ultimate with 35% IC and heal… because that was literally all he was doing. He wasn’t even moving. He broke because spitting out normal sentry damage WHILE being able to face tank the world via a pocket healing is what broke him. Bringing back just the defensive part of 35% IC would be fine (in my opinion). Also this lets him at least try to get out of a bad situation by going recon and healing while running.

Other thing they could do is give him a new transformation on E. This mode would basically be “Emergency Escape mode” He’d be a little smaller than tank mode, have IC, have a movespeed boost, have a fairly loud siren (so he couldn’t flank with this mode), and not have a gun.

70

His damage isn’t his problem, but his lack of consistency is. His spread is too high for him to be immobile while using it. That level of spread is okay for someone who’s meant to get in the enemies face like Tracer and Sombra, but not for a mid-range hero like Bastion.

Tank is kinda a problem too, yeah. I have no idea why they also nerfed Ironclad in Tank mode. It made sense there, but not in Sentry. Or they could do away with Ironclad all together, give Tank it’s armor back, and revert the Sentry changes…

Not sure about a new ability on E, but something along the lines of an “eject button” when holding a direction and leaving Sentry mode would be cool. Something to give him a little boost in whatever direction he was holding to make getting out of Sentry feel more fluid.

71

I’d say some drastic mobility changes could go a long way for Bastion. (make him a jet pleas PLEASE)

72

3-degree spread and headshots would be not-very-useful against, say, McCree on the other side of the map… but you’re not supposed to be good against him. You’re supposed to be good against tanks, especially tanks who get way too close.

Bastion can’t end up as a sniper substitute!

He can harass a point if there are enough enemies packed in there densely.

I actually can get pretty close as bastion, it’s mostly aggressive poking in recon mode while draining self-repair to get out of trouble, when I retreat around a corner they think “AH AH! I got him!” and chase me down only to round the corner to find me fully transformed.

The problem is in these really close quarters fights I still can’t quite kill some tanks quickly enough. A Rein can charge or a Roadhog can hook and force me back into recon mode :sob: and waste me. I got the drop on them, I baited them… but even though shocked and flustered they popped an ability and won anyway.

The problem with initially narrows spread and headshots is it will make long range burst fire against non-tanks far too effective. One of Bastion’s counters, Widowmaker, won’t have such a problem. Hanzo can’t ever really get the drop on Bastion any more, just a quick burst to Hanzo’s head will do it. It isn’t really DEVELOPING the skills that Bastion players do have.

One of the most important skills is working around the range limitations so you have to constantly be moving position. If you double the effective bullet density and headshots you wouldn’t need to reposition as much to get at a nice good medium range.

"Because having a higher spread helps with shield breaking…? "

It’s not that it directly helps, it’s that it doesn’t really HARM his ability to break shields because shields are huge. Sorry, I should have made that clearer. That leaves something for everyone else.

Bastion is not “Garbage at everything else” he is VERY good at getting the drop on a team of squishy and tanks if he can flank around and shoot at them from around medium range. I wouldn’t play Bastion if I wasn’t confident I could mow down nearly everyone defending the penultimate point on Dorado when I flank around on the balcony.

I don’t think you understand my point about “exceptions” in a game, it doesn’t matter if it’s exceptions in armour or exceptions anywhere else. It’s still going to cause problems sooner or later.

73

Unfortunately, even as a Bastion main I have to give it to the soldier. Let’s break this down, remember this started with the Soldier getting the drop on the Bastion and all that player did was transform in plain sight. Actually while still being shot at.

That wasn’t a very clever response and should he be buffed in power to reward Bastion with a kill even though the Soldier then continued to play better? The soldier used cover and mobility. Bastion had transformed before soldier’s rocket was fired so he inevitably got hit by a rocket.

The bastion should have self healed until he got his bearings and worked into cover, poking the soldier and ideally baiting him to use a rocket on Recon mode as you work your way into a position where you’re behind cover and for the soldier to come at you he has to cross over open ground.

Then leap out of cover and transform mid air, the soldier has no cover, you got him to waste his rocket.

It’s not enough just to say “I gave up mobility, therefore I should win against a player doing much more beat me”. You have to be far more careful in giving up your mobility. Bastion in recon continually healing while using cover has a lot of effective HP, you can work your way into a better time and better place to give up your mobility.

74

He’s also not good against a McCree that’s 25 meters away… He has a less than 50% accuracy in that instance guaranteed just by his spread (source).

Bastion was never a sniper substitute. I have no idea where that notion came from… By that logic, Hammond should also be a sniper substitute, he has basically the same spread as old Bastion, only Hammond stays at his minimum spread much longer.

“Hey, could you guys all group up so I can kill you better, thanks a bunch”

Bastion has the hitbox of a tank, half the healthpool of one, and his only mobility is his ultimate. You’re not meant to dive. Also, are they deaf? Most players I play with can hear when I transform, and know not to go around the corner like an idiot…

Which is why headshots were good back when he had them. Kinda like nearly every other hero in the game…

So Hanzo (the sniper) can stay further back, where Bastion won’t be as effective against him

He should be constantly moving positions because if he doesn’t he’ll die. Why add even more complexity to that? And if they want to give him “range limitations”, then why is his falloff range 35-50 meters?

He has the loudest footsteps in the game, he walks at base speed, and he has the largest non-tank hitbox in the game… He’s not good at getting the drop on anyone… When they go “Where’s the Bastion?”, then you’re kinda done with that sneaking…

It’s an exception that Bastion is the only one with a passive damage resistance. I’m wanting to change that exception to another exception.

75

How was this… “Playing better”???

Run directly at your enemy, when they give up mobility for a supposed strength.

That’s like expecting a kill by blinking directly towards a Mccree as Tracer.

He brute strength killed a Sentry Bastion in a direct 1v1 firefight.

That’s not “ok” no matter the strategy involved.
BOTH Players made mistakes there.

Just one got rewarded for theirs… and the other, further punished for already committing to a vulnerable and very defensive and already punishing ability.

“No cover”

Apparently that wall no longer exists. huh.

“Doing much more”

Aka, run shoot cos win better.

And in turn, Soldier 76 still has a more dangerous presence than a Sentry Bastion.

That’s a problem.

76

I’m with you that tank mode feels very VERY vulnerable, I kind of dread using my Ultimate as bastion, but it’s not for the reason you’d think. It’s not really for lack of HP. A bit of extra armour really would be impossible to balance, it would be either just not enough yet in some cases way too much.

The problem is far more how much of a bullet magnet you are in Tank mode while so many things are throwing you off, the unique UI with a different crosshair, a bunch of flashing gizmos on the screen, lower height.

One thing that kills so many is the sudden ending of the ult which effectively stuns you and leaves you in recon mode, it’s like getting hit by a static roadhog hook. Yet psychologically, the entire enemy team is primed to destroy you or avoid you.

The number of games where my only deaths the entire match were in Tank mode were too much.

I like a suggestion someone else made of doubling the duration to 20 seconds but still only 10 rockets. To play off how this is a means of psychologically manipulating your opponents and also makes it easier to be aggressive, use the rockets then retreat before the pseudo-stun ending of the ult.

"He broke because spitting out normal sentry damage WHILE being able to face tank the world via a pocket healing is what broke him. "

A lot of this is very theoretical, healers tend not to want to pocket stationary heroes that already can heal themselves anyway. And it doesn’t save Bastion from Roadhog hooks so Bastion has to be even more out of the way anyway. And if this synergy REALLY was such a problem then it’s not going to be with a pocket healer, it’s going to be with a dedicated shield from an orisa or something.

But how often do Bastions get a dedicated shield? Not very damn often, and unlike a pocket healer, a pocket shield WILL protect you from roadhog hooks.

You know what I’d like way more than tank on e? Recon mode on E. Hold on a second and hear me out.

With all the stuns and other CC not to mention just the amount of crap flying in your face it’s very easy to lose track of whether you’re in sentry mode, are transforming, had your transformation interrupted, or was the animation cancelled… so you accidentally hit reconfigure again and undo your progress. Though a great substitute would be to have the jump button in sentry mode always cause bastion to leave recon mode.

So when you need to get OUT of sentry mode you don’t need to worry about “wait, is the game lagging, did it not register that input, do I need to press reconfig again?” just keep hammering jump button to evade and incoming barrage.

I’ve gone pretty cold on the idea of Tank on E. I’m beginning to understand tank as an ultimate a bit more, appreciate it’s wonderful power to OHK squishy heroes and work around its limitations.

I think it would be preferable if the E ability was somehow a support thing. Perhaps tag an individual enemy for wallhacks so like a step below even Hanzo’s scouting arrow as it’s not over an area but one hero. This would help compensate for Bastion’s immobility and also make him be a bit more appreciated by teammates.

77

Make ironclad an E ability, like fortify but without cc resistance

78

This line was referencing that week between the rework going live and IC getting nerfed to 20%. During that bit, I’m pretty sure he was indeed getting pocketed and dedicated shielding. The shield kept him safe from Hog and 35% IC with pocket healing kept him alive through getting dove. That gave him all the time in the world to shred everything.

79

Well for one, the Soldier got the drop on the Bastion.

Now I don’t play Free For All because it’s obvious the game is not designed with free for all in mind. At least one hero has an ultimate that is completely useless in free for all. So one way that screws up is heroes can get the drop on other players that they otherwise wouldn’t. Such as how one has continual sprint so as everyone is running around he can run up behind people as everyone runs a circuit.

In this case the Bastion ‘giving up mobility’ there and then is like “blinking directly towards a Mccree as Tracer.” not the other way around.

“He brute strength killed a Sentry Bastion in a direct 1v1 firefight.”

It wasn’t brute strength, it was the incredible ease of shooting an immobile target yet the Bastion’s positioning seriously limited his ability to keep shooting back. AI mean he was shot a load in the back before he transformed and while transforming. Go frame by frame, by the time the Bastion begins shooting all his armour is gone and he’s down to almost half health.

And look at where the bastion positioned himself, the Soldier only has to move a tiny bit to the bastion’s right to be out of his line of sight. He shouldn’t have thrown himself down there. Frankly he should have fled with heals and fought in recon mode much more.

He then tries to heal and is only able to get a sliver of armour back when it was inevitable that the soldier was going to emerge from cover with an easy firing solution, Bastion has ONE CHANCE to survive and that’s to kill THIS SOLDIER right now but he’s looking around and putting a 0.5sec delay on firing again by healing.

Go frame by frame, the problem is not the spread, notice how the Soldier’s apparent size almost entirely fills the crosshair. The problem is the Bastion couldn’t track him left and right and up an down perfectly while the soldier could land a rocket and track him just fine.

80

there were youtubers saying “look what he can survive while being healed!” they made quite the sensation but no one asked if Bastion got much of ANY sort of cooperation.

For example, Orisa has always been able to give Bastion a shield and that makes him far more capable at facing a tank, but does that happen even today? No very often. Even when there’s an orisa and I just follow her around setting up behind her shields it doesn’t really work.

If there are heroes diving on Bastion with a pocket healer… why would the healer not be targeted first? Those dive heroes always go for the healer, the Bastion is protected from being dived on not by the healer doing anything, just by the healer being around and being target instead.

Tracer’s ult was nerfed such that it can’t kill sentry bastion even with only 20% ironclad. And that would of course be irrelevant to healing as it’s instantaneous damage.

81

Because people generally have terrible target prioritization.

Also even if they did notice the healer… which do you target first…
The death machine spewing an endless stream of hot lead who’s getting healed so good luck with that?
Or…
The person keeping the death machine alive and pray that by some miracle you don’t get shredded?

Kind of a lose lose there.

82

I don’t think they really do. I think we all know that Mercy is more likely to be targeted by a hero like Winston than a Bastion.

83

And it’s bad at its own situation, busting tanks.

86

If Bastion is bad for busting tanks… which hero is better?

Because you have 450dps to beat. And that’s 450dps just targeting centre mass, not dependent on headshots.

Hanzo does deal 420 damage with his Storm Arrows, but that’s over 1.5sec at the absolute minimum way of calculating it. Reaper’s DSP is actually almost identical to Hanzo, still not as good as what Bastion can put out to up to 35m before damage fall off.

It requires a bit of forethought and positioning, but that’s part of the challenge. Hanzo has an intermittent cooloff, Reaper has really short range, Bastion has a greater challenge but for a greater reward.

87

It’s not a matter of who’s better, but who’s worse. Roadhog is going to be around more and hook is a delete Bastion button. So a normal ability on an 8 second cooldown that ultra hard counters Bastion means sentry isn’t even able to do its job. At that point, anyone else who isn’t deleted is better than him.

and most of them fly around the target because of the spread.

Spread is the new falloff.

88

Yeah, hook is really powerful, but Hook is always going to be a problem and trying to dodge the hook is still futile you end up sacrificing too much DPS and you play into Hog’s hands. You can out range the hook, you can attack from unexpected angles, exploit shields your team is already using, bait out the hook in recon mode.

The spread is not going to miss tanks, even at the edge of damage falloff range. Spread will matter at stupidly long range against small squishy heroes, but we aren’t talking about busting tanks any more now, are we?

Though while were at it, the spread being larger than a squishy isn’t the worse thing as it effectively makes tracking a bit more forgiving, it’s on par with how Moira’s beam is a bit easier to hit with, you can actually have the middle of your crosshairs outside the edge and you’ll still be going pretty much the same DPS.

Bastion’s spread: 3 degrees
Reaper’s spread: 20 degrees.

Hanzo isn’t good enough for the job either, he needs half his storm arrows to be headshots to frag a Roadhog.

And even if there is a Roadhog and he’s dominating on the point, I’m still not switching if there’s a Doomfist or Winston who keeps diving on our back-lines. I’m still going to try peeling around to try to frag their supports, I can actually take out their Zen from REALLY far away, I just need a line of sight on their back-lines, not extend all the way out there.

89

massive spread. Bastion’s main issue is massive spread. If you’re hitting Roadhog for all 450 damage you’re going to get hooked.

from bridge to bridge on Numbani first point, Bastion misses bullets against a Reinhardt.

I don’t want forgiving I want it to do what I do with it. If I track perfectly then MURDER THEM. I don’t want training wheels I’ll hardly use.

Bastion: can’t move.
Reaper: can move.

Also Bastion’s hitbox is bigger.

Bastion can’t move so as soon as his spread gets bad there’s nothing he can do about it. If Reaper’s spread gets bad he can move without sacrificing anything. He even has wraith to help him.

90

I very much agree with the point of his ultimate being lackluster and not really fitting with the reasons you want to bring bastion.

Personally I think he needs changes that are more significant but I do agree that his sentry mode is pretty good at what it does.

They did say they might have some balance changes coming for Bastion so I’m not going to hold my breath on a rework right now but yes he is struggling to stay relevant even situationally at the higher skill bracket.