The videos you referring to are from the current GDC or before? If you referring to the before the designers did not went into details just mentioned how you could implementate a ranking/competitive system and did a quick historical briefing of how it came from, what were the initial purpose of the Elo and TrueSkill model.
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This is where I think we may have to disagree. I cannot follow the logic of players [winning or losing the same number of games as me] as a key indicator or measurement of co-playersā skill.
This is why the group mechanism completely breaks the reasoning behind having a matchmaker in the first place. If your group is solid, and letās say you spend a week or so climbing the ladder with this group. Regardless if your skill is adequate for the new skill tier youāve risen to, the fact that you have āwonā as many games as others around you at this new skill tier says nothing to your actual skill. It also shows that, for one reason or another, you did not belong at your previous skill tier because you were able to climb.
You could counter-argue that solo-queuing would fix that, but for a player with a dedicated group/team who never solo-queues for comp immediately invalidates any theories put forth in favor of the matchmaker.
In essence, the player has āmatchedā themselves with humans they choose to play alongside, and against others the matchmaker thinks can beat them. If such a team proves themselves more effective as a unit at winning games and climbing the ladder than āmatchmadeā players, then it lends credence to other players who feel trapped by the matchmaker itself.
Not that I would disagree with this either, but if we want to discuss quality, then you have to address the disparity that sometimes arises whenever teams of sufficient skill manage to severely outplay teams of insufficient skill. This is made evident by six-stack teams of similarly skilled players (within close SR proximity) which manage to outplay or win the majority of games at their skill level.
This ties in to how well youāre actually doing as well as being a good team player, and playing with teammates who are able to also do well because of your performance. This is why LFG and creating your own personalized teams is a great workaround. If you are doing something wrong, and your team is capable of letting you know where you misstepped, the quality of their advice is invaluable ā as opposed to being flamed or harassed by randoms in solo-queue.
So, no. I donāt think the matchmaker in and of itself is without fault. And while I understand that youāre arguing in the affirmative for player self-reflection and self-improvement, I donāt think absolving the system of its faults is entirely correct either. Which is easily demonstrated by a multi-stack of players winning more games than they lose.
If you remove the matchmakerās ability to matchmake, it cannot create performant teams consistently. Which is what I believe many people are trying to argue here in good faith.
Not that I prefer one camp or the other. Just pointing out my observations. 
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If you need some coaching from a GM, feel free to add me on Discord! I will help you out with answering any questions you have regarding improving in the game, as well as give you Live VOD Reviews to help you improve your gameplay <3 =]
Discord: Abdullahx9000#4294
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How have you heard of my feeding? 
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who hasnt?? lol. it was not a jibe at you fren.
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Donāt worry I know homie! haha <3
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Well said my man.
I am glad you came to this conclusion, not because I am arbitrarily defending the game, but because the other side of the argument is ludicrous 
Bravo.
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You are arbitrarily defending the game if you donāt have any documented evidence that verifies no rigging is in place. You have no objective, counter-factual evidence to offer in defense of the system.
Until then youāre welcome to read the active-use patents, dev statements, and known workings of SBMM.
The rigging is officially documented whereas your take is just arbitrary.
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But, you have all the evidence, and youāve had it for some times, so whatās happening?
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Common sense would tell you that Blizzard doesnāt benefit from you staying in the same rank. I have yet to have someone tell me what benefits they get from it.
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This is gracious of you, really. I know weāve had our moments where weāve gone back and forth and things have gotten a little edgy, so I appreciate this offer. I really do.
Iām moving on from Overwatch though, Abdullah. Sure, I came to the realization that the matchmaker serves a valid purpose, and I thought that this would really change the landscape for me, that I could come at this thing with renewed interest, having shaken off the idea that I was being screwed and manipulated, but that hasnāt been the case.
Overwatch IS a team game, but Iām not drawn to the social aspects of it, and Iām not really drawn to the game itself either (I donāt play quick play or any other mode), for me itās just been about the competitive experience, the climb and gaining SR. But I just canāt deal with the unpredictability of it: the team aspect of this game is not a strength as far as Iām concerned, and certainly thatās never been more true than it is now. I play on console, where accounts are free, and so people create multiple ones ā to do whatever. I mean it really is a ridiculous competitive environment ā and at this point, I lack the drive to try to overcome it.
A match may last 15 minutes, and chances are good that I get a leaver/thrower/apathetic player. Not uncommon to experience the exact same thing the following match (or the match after that). So thatās 30-45 minutes of essentially wasted time. Then itās another 30-45 minutes ā just to get back to where I started ā this is 60-90 minutes of my time with zero to show for it. Rinse and repeat countless times. I just canāt justify the time anymore.
Beyond that, Iām just incredibly bored. Even winning is now bland and unexciting, it feels more like relief than a thrill. Everything is just so stale to the Nth degree. The same heroes. The same maps. The same strategies. I just donāt find it fun or interesting, and I canāt justify the opportunity costs.
If I could go back, I wouldnāt re-make the decision to start playing Overwatch. Not because I resent the game or the developers, but because I realize that if I took that amount of time and invested it in ANYTHING else, I couldāve literally picked any topic, activity, or subject and have gained at least intermediate skill in that area. But I donāt have those skill(s) or their benefits. I chose Overwatch instead. In hindsight, it seems insane.
Couldāve picked up a second language, learned a new instrument, couldāve been a decent programmer, couldāve read many, many, many books in some area that I care about, I couldāve had a great understanding of crypto markets and been making money moves right now. Etc. etc. I look back at the time, and thereās just nothing to show for it. Now, let me stop here before I give the impression that playing Overwatch is objectively a bad way to spend oneās time. Iām not going that far. We all need to have fun and relax, and for others whoāve accomplished more than I have against serious odds ā thatās impressive. To rise to the top in any area of competition is no small thing.
But ā for me ā I look back at the time spent and find that it was a mistake. And the only true mistake is the one you donāt learn from.
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As much as people like to look at the group of eccentrics I align myself with as a bunch of trolls, we genuinely love and care about the game with a deep and abundant passion!!
Which is why I can completely understand you when you say:
And honestly, I couldnāt be happier for you.
It genuinely is not the boogie man these forums make it out to be.
Yes, Correctā¦ (I wish more people remembered this 
)
One of the reasons I respect (and honestly recommend) that youāre moving on. The competitive game shouldnāt be about ranking up and the SR
- And if people find that to be the case, I honestly feel theyāre playing for the wrong reasons. As has always been my perspective.
As someone who started in bronze and grinded to Masters (over many seasons), I fully respect this.
I respectfully disagree. The team aspect is what makes this game so enjoyable
- When played correctly.
- Which you and I will only ever experience in scrims. Never ladder.
Thatās a mistake 
(you know I love you 
)
- This game would be a nightmare to me on console
Nobody here thinks the Match Maker is perfect. For certain a couple changes could be made to make the game feel better. But in generalā¦
- Competitive is as competitive does. People will climb over other peopleās dead bodies just to get a taste of a better life (in this case rank).
- Valorant is the same competitive experience to me as Overwatch (just with significantly more individual carry potential).
Again, I completely respect this.
Yes, correctā¦
When I would grind this game with my original crew (we were all hard stuck gold players), I remember after we won a game, one of my friends said
- I canāt believe I play this game for āfunā
- When winning, grinding and playing are no longer enjoyable, its time to move onto another game or activity all together.
Iād like to think youāve seen me tell other players:
- If I could go back, I wouldnāt choose to grind again. I would choose to stay in gold with my friends. We eventually separated because some of us wanted to grind and the others werenāt as motivated. Eventually we separated all together.
- I did have a blast though, and I met new friends (scrim team) and I had some amazing experiences learning how the game works and learning a lot about competitive gaming in general (from my coach).
But at the end of the day, I ended up putting off grad school for two years because I wanted to just āchillā and āplay video games,ā while working and living life. Its definitely set me back a little (career wise) but I can always make up for it (and I am now 
).
But you still can do all of these things. As the pandemic comes to an end and life returns to some level of normal, life continues!! Life continued even during the pandemic!! It just felt like it was on hold because of how we interacted with the world.
Very well said my friend.
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Thanks! Iām not slapping your hand for expressing your opinions, but I think in general we benefit from giving the other side of any argument a baseline level of respect, even if we strongly disagree. The discourse is never worse than when we stray from discussing the ideas themselves.
People may have what they consider to be good reasons for believing something. The way the matchmaker works IS counter intuitive and seriously deviates from literally every real-world competitive experience that people are accustomed to (and so people bring their real-world understanding of competitive dynamics to gaming environments, which I think accounts for a lot of the disconnect). The best way to counter a problem argument is to come at people with facts and logic so strong that they canāt be refuted. And people are way more likely to resist if you call their beliefs essentially āstupid,ā (because itās a stoneās throw from implying that theyāre stupid) and it just makes everything a lot more contentious and argumentative.
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Of course this is a completely different situation, literally all because it is 6 strangers on the internet and it is a team game. I donāt go out of my way to disrespect anyone tbh, but I take your point on board. If 6 people practise together they will get FAR better results.
Im not coming from a āthis idea is insane and lets attack themā, more, this is a total waste of time, 99% isnāt true and obsessing over not being able to climb in a video game is unproductive for a grown human.
Im not a fan of the word belief either in all honesty - belief is inherently incorrect because it isnāt based in fact, and im a man of science, not conjecture. None of the facts point towards a company rigging their own game to stress their player base out, doesnāt really sound like a great business plan haha.
But at the end of the day, just like the law, it is not for me to prove them wrongā¦ It is the prosecution who proves the defendant wrong and they have zero evidence, so itās a moot point in my eyes. If this ālaw suitā was real there would be hundreds of lawyers pouncing on it to take down a huge company like Activision Blizz, would be all over the news.
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I understand and respect your decision. Although ā and I am probably being quite selfish in hoping this ā I hope you will still frequent the forums so that we still get the chance to occasionally engage in interesting discussions.
Either way, Iāve benefitted a lot from our exchanges and I wanna thank you for being a thoughtful and committed debating partner.
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Same here Apologies if I ever said anything that rubbed you the wrong way. The forum experience is a strange one, there are just so many elements and contours here. In one instance maybe you just got done being flamed multiple times, and then you come across a totally different personās message, and you lean in too hard. Or youāre like, weāre discussing ideas here, so thereās no harm in calling something āillogicalā or saying that someoneās reasoning is off (maybe it was, maybe it wasnāt), but is that really the right call?. Or you read something not intended to be offensive, but someone else annoyed you beforehand, and so itās taken the wrong way, or wow āhow did they mean THAT?ā ā am I reading too much into it, etc. Itās just an aggressive environment, and thatās ok I suppose (so long as it doesnāt get disrespectful, or maybe aggressive is bad too or something??/who knows??/I donāt??).
True! I honestly think the forums are fine no matter whatās being discussed, because you ARE practicing thinking and writing, which you can almost always justify. How often are we going to sit down in front of a blank Google doc and just start writing? Not often. But weāll go on reddit or come here and start thinking through something and writing. I canāt speak for anyone else, but Iām 1000+ posts in and I think Iām a better communicator for it now (and I say that humbly as all hell, because Iāll still re-read a post and cringe because itās verbose, or it sounds like Iām trying to sound smart ā and failing ā instead of just expressing an idea as plainly as possible, or I didnāt get the point across the way I wanted to, or 20+ other reasons ) than I was a thousand posts ago. Iām probably 500k words in total, if not more (this paragraph is roughly 200+ words), and so I think spending time here is worth it. Besides, you run into some cool people who challenge your ideas and your approaches, and you think through your arguments and the counterarguments ā and you get to take many of those lessons and apply them to things that have nothing to do with Overwatch. For all these reasons (and a few more) is why Iāve remained active on these forums despite waning interest in the game.
We do live in a capitalist society, and in the same way we mostly buy games (and other products) purely out of self-interest (while seeking to extract as much value as we can from the other side), admittedly it can be hypocritical, in a sense, to expect developers to operate differently. I mean, we donāt REALLY care about them at the end of the day (we want as much as we can get from them as cheaply as we can get it), so why should they be held to a higher ethical standard, or put our interests above their own (in a way that doesnāt ultimately reflect self-interest) ā this is something of a zero sum game after all. Each party is coming to this transaction essentially looking to get what they can out of the other. Thatās a reality, and to some extent itās even ok. Still, there will always be ethical conversations to be had about these sort of transactional relationships between consumers and corporations. Theyāre healthy and indispensable and they can change (often for the better) how either party deals with and views the other.
Itās complicated and messy ā I know.
You can wrongly attribute, basically, any motive to your opposition. Stupidity, arrogance, delusion, ego-gratification, stubbornness, tribalism, and half million other unflattering things. But Iāve found that itās a failing and not productive. And in that sense, Iām glad Iāve had all of these debates. In some ways, I think Iāve come away a more reflective and charitable person (when to comes to the arguments of others). Certainly picked up lots of things Iāll apply and think about in the context of stickier topics (like politics, religion, social issues, race, class, etc). Also, all this has taught me to be more disciplined when Iām analyzing the arguments of others as well as my own. Whether someone is a Blizzard loyalists or not (and they may not be), it has no bearing on the soundness of their argument. After you criticize others enough for these kinds of flaws in reasoning, you get better at catching yourself doing it ā go figure.
True, and Iāve said before that lots of the ādelusionā in the ādelusionalā thinking is really a disconnect between the competitive environments people are used to in the real world, and how Overwatch operates in a completely different way. We see one professional sports team crush another, and we call this competition between men. We see no handholding; nothing bracing either team from the harsh reality of competition. And everyone accepts that this is just what ācompetitionā just is. Expectations and understanding form around that model. Then people come to Overwatch and itās completely different. And Iām willing to bet that SBMM/MMR for a lot of these folks are completely foreign concepts theyāve never even heard about until these forums. So they have a terrible experience online, they join the forums, and they discuss how this OW experience is awful (and implicit in that complaint is āI donāt know what the hell this is! Iāve never experienced anything like this. It doesnāt happen in pro sports, it doesnāt happen in my gym class, etc. I watch videos. I practice. Blizzard is screwing meā).
The way this stuff works is very counterintuitive.
Lol, donāt even get me started. This worldā¦
Thatās why I really donāt think forums are a good place for this topic, as ironic as that may sound given that these forums revolve around discussing the game. I wasnāt trying to put anyone down in my OP about interlocutors on either side, but no one here is going to take the time to capture all the nuance and details and explanations and terminology and history and development etc of SBMM. Plus it does get frustrating and people do get angry/offended, and thatās going to show up in the discourse.
Thank you, this is so nice I wrote another post to Abdullah about this. Discovering what Iāve discovered about the matchmaker has not been the transformative experience I was hoping for. Iām just burned out on the game. I donāt want to play these characters anymore, I donāt want to look at these maps anymore, I donāt want to think about the things winning requires you to think about. Itās like listening to a song you like so many times that the magic is gone.
Iāve put a lot of (too much) time into the game, and not with the kind of discipline I devote to more serious things, and that was a mistake in a sense. I rode the fence between āthis is just a game so donāt take it seriouslyā while dumping considerable time into it. Asinine. Either give it everything youāve got or leave and find something else that motivates you that way. And thatās what Iām doing now.
Itās only recently that Iāve come to understand how dopamine works (highly recommend Andrew Hubermanās [a Stanford professor of Neurology] podcasts) and how it can turn you into a giant pleasure-seeking idiot. I played a lot of Overwatch out of mere, dumb force of habit, even when I wasnāt enjoying the game. And to be honest, Iām just burned out at this point, and I really want to move on to other things.
Iām highly suspect of engaging in an experience that I fully realize is designed to be as addictive as possible. I donāt have great feelings about gaming in general after my Overwatch experience. Seems melodramatic, I know, and maybe it is. But I just donāt have much to show for all the time I put in, and that stings, seriously. Life is short, time is fleeting. So much to be done.
p.s.
Thank you so much for your well-wishes for my sister! Iāve never seen her this happy before, it really is something.
Iāve been crazy busy lately, so Iām sorry it took me so long to reply. I was traveling, and just have a ton going on. And apparently I cannot write a short, quick reply if my life depended on it.
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