That matters why? …
2 Likes
To better understand where your interpretation of old mercy’s status was.
Because in pro play, she wasn’t meta at all, and it was mostly zen-lucio. In comp, mercy was plenty viable and was meta when she had her ult buffed to have invincibility after rez. In diamond I saw her plenty; at least every other game. In other places like streams and word of mouth, she was meta there too. All the way up to gm.
Mercy was used a lot in lower tiers even when she was considered trash. She has had a huge fan base since launch.
And once again, what is wrong with Mercy ever being meta?
2 Likes
I know that. What I’m saying though is that mercy was complained about that she was weak as she got outcompeted by ana, zen, and lucio at that time. Blizzard decided to buff her by making invincible during rez. A ton of ppl realized that rez wasn’t fun and the playstyle for using rez wasn’t fun either, especially since mercy could survive after rezzing now, so they complained and the rest is history.
Omg. So everyone had an epiphany? Yeah, okay. If she never got the invincibility buff, I doubt she would have been reworked the way she had. Nothing was wrong with her. Heaven forbid Mercy be viable, especially when the other main healer got nerfed.
6 Likes
Well… i made some researches on that “Mass Res is frustrating” topic and i have to say. Yes, the SR exploit caused a lot of frustrating for players. But that was not the only thing.
Mercy’s pick rate was not that high because she was to strong. That pick rate was that high because of 4 major factors that are relatively obvious if you think about them.
The overall popularity of Mercy (Meta independent), Ana’s problems with Dive and shields and the lack of a third strong main healer.
The 4ed factor has his roots at April 18.2017. (around S4 if i’m not wrong).
Players started to abuse the SR system in some ways, Mercy’s res included.
For statistical comparison: S4 Week 1 and S5 Week 5
S4 Week 1
http://www.omnicmeta.com/2017/03/pc-competitive-ladder-season-4-week-1.html
S5 Week 5
http://www.omnicmeta.com/2017/07/overwatch-hero-meta-report-pc-s5-w5.html
All of the 4 factors made her pickrate go up more and more. But non of them showed any problems with her kit/power level. You could say that the SR gain with the res is bound to her kit but thats not true, The SR system was the problem and that it rewarded many ress, which also resulted in hide and res.
The argument that the invulnerability buff made her too strong is void as well. That happened around S3 if i’m not wrong. Way before her pick rate went up.
The only anomaly in that time was Ana. She was nerfed which resulted in Mercy being more important for teamcomps (only 2 main healers, one will always be strong).
In S5 Dive became very strong as well (ergo, Ana falls behind even more) and Mercy works very well with Dive. Also, that was probably the most frustrating season of them all. Not because of Mercy, but Dive.
Summarized we had the SR exploit, Dive comp, to many shields, a very weak Ana, boosted Mercy players, stereotype:hide&res and too few healers.
All of that caused frustration (But not Mercy’s kit, her Res certainly not, as well) and in a game like OW, whose fault will it be if so much frustration is visible? Right. The fault of the most picked hero. Mercy in that time (End of S4-S5).
Streamers, YouTubers and those empowered the stereotype of hiding Mercy players and literally forced more hate into Mercy. More specially, Mass Res which was claimed to be the only reason for her high pick rate. But that is not true. Only her good base kit was the reason for that and the lack of more valuable main healers (partly the SR exploit as well).
Ton’s of frustration thrown onto Mercy for no reason.
I never heard anyone complain about Mass Res before mid S4. The time in which the SR exploit was revealed and players started to make videos about ‘how you have to hide with Mercy’.
My conclusion from that was that the frustration against Mercy was never her fault, but the fault of other things which aren’t even connected to her. The only thing was the SR exploit which is part of the system, not her kit.
The hate was only created because of hive-mind thinking.
12 Likes
But 60 = 60. You just can’t kill them all at the same time with only one Winston. Is it that hard to get?
Okay, but you must choose because you only can do one thing at the same time, and if you are not healing, your teammates will surely die. However, valk is an ult and amp it up is a normal ability. Also, you can use amp it up for speed boost too.
No, because Reaper’s wraith form can’t save his teammates at all nor help them, it’s only a self saving ability. Please, don’t be hypocritical.
Yes, and that’s bad design because it forces the Mercy to disengage and hide into the skybox in order to extend her healing, something that in fact a good Mercy is able to do without the need of using valk. Valk is only an ez mode, it’s not needed. Its only uses are boosting a winning team for consolidating a won fight and saving yourself. Bad design.
That’s a lie.
Yes, I said it doesn’t allow you to do two things at the same time. Any problem?
…
What?
Valkirie is about huge duration VS no real power. That’s bad design as it only works as a ez mode pro simulator for making up your lack of skill.
Yes, you must. If you come near of the fight you won’t reach your teammates. Please, inform yourself about the design you are trying to defend.
Once again, a lie. Please, stop lying. Hide and rez was only an option that only a few chose. I never hid with pre rework Mercy. Not. A. Single. Time.
Ok, then heal/boost one single person… Oh, wait… that’s the same thing you are doing without valk, I forgot…
Valk doesn’t allows you to use better rez at all, that’s a nonsense. Also, you are forced to disengage or to battle Mercy, which is not her purpose at all, she is a support, not a dps, and a lot of people will report you if you dare to play her like a dps. Checked.
Did you read that part? I think you didn’t understand.
EMP = no shields.
Sound barrier = Shields.
EMP = No sound barrier.
I’ll be very simple here:
Valk was proved as bad design in the past. It never should have returned to the game as Mercy’s ult. It’s just an overpowered E ability that allows you to make up your lack of skill with Mercy’s basics. Yes, valk is only Mercy’s basics but even easier, that’s all. There is nothing to learn about it, even an ape could master it.
However, with rez you had something different with such a high skill cap that there are a lot of guides on internet about how to master it, and no, they aren’t about the hide and rez exploit. Every half brained person knows at this point that it was an oversized problem. Even Taimu, the pro player and Mercy hater admitted that hide and rez was only due to her broken SR system. Fixed that, hide and rez would have been proved as the thing it was: an awful strategy. It would have died after a couple of weeks.
Fyi, Mercy’s pickrate during seasons 2 and 3 with her god mass rez was between 5-0%, while Pharah had her highest pickrates ever and Lucio and Ana had around 85% pickrate both of them. Yes, mass rez was soooooooooooooo op and she was in eeeeeeeeeevery game, of course. /s
Another information for you. Original Mercy didn’t have mass rez. During game’s development she had another ult. Can you guess which one? Yes, VALKIRIE! It was proved such a bad design that Blizz finally decided to replace it by something better and healthier for Mercy and the entire game: original mass rez. After that, they had to make mass rez instant because long cast time and huge slow down were proved as bad design too.
Well, if the enemy team is so braindead that they can’t focus anything nor burst anything nor use a single ult nor use any aoe damage, them maybe valk will be able to counter them, but if you do some maths, you will realise that there is no need of using anything relevant to counter valk. Just fire a single target. Geez, someone posted before that he could win a 1vs3 with Zarya against Soldier, Reinhardt and Mercy, and she was using valk.
That’s because, as I said, Mercy’s SR system was utterly broken. It heavily rewarded huge rezzes, and the best way to earn one was just the hide and rez thing. Even Taimu admitted it. Mercy’s design was not the problem there but her SR system. Fixed that, hide and rez would die.
I played her in comp and never hid. She only needed QoL changes in order to stop the hide and rez exploit.
But the problem now is that almost no one enjoys her, even those who still play her. Not even a single pro Mercy likes her current state. EeveeA, Vale, Star2D2 and Anymetic complained about her. According to some of them, she has no ultimate, no skill ceiling or even both of them (something I agree and think is a terrible design’s problem).
I can confidently assure you that not hiding was not uncommon at all. Almost everyone who are complaining here and played Mercy did never hide. Also, there are a lot more who left the game and never hid neither. Hide and rez was only useful for climbing. If you were playing her right you would never do that bs.
This can possibly be because of her rez which forces you to disengage, hide and spend two seconds trying to rez a teammate. As I defined it, it is a self game breaking ability.
EeveeA complained several times on Twitter and even in an interview. Other pro players have made several statements and complains in different places. A lot of people is just leaving the game because of the Mercy rework (another way to complain, hitting the Blizz’s wallet)… A lot of random people will tell you they prefer old Mercy if you ask them while playing. There are a lot of people complaining. Not everyone comes to this forum, but tbh, it seems like the ones who like her are just a few. Reddit is very toxic against Mercy and always have been and will be, so I wouldn’t consider it a good resource about her. And yeah, Stylosa thinks she is great atm, but he is clueless about her, if you see him playing Mercy you will notice that he is wood tier Mercy.
Funny thing, I once had to deal with a 1vs3 with mass rez because my two teammates died randomly by Junkrat’s bombs. Do you know who was hiding during that entire game? Junkrat. I could win that game because he let his two teammates to deal with me and I killed them. That simple. I was rofl at how bad the “hide and wait” strategy was.
Exactly. For example, I shouldn’t be complaining here, I’m Spanish. However, I know that in the spanish forums I won’t be heard, so what could I do? Start writing here and improve my English.
Why all these posts about other heroes here? Rein, Widow, now Mccree… Please, people, if you want to talk about other character, create a new tophic, this is a thread about Mercy.
Reddit is since the beggining, the most toxic place towards Mercy you will find no matter her iteration. They are glad that now she has been, according to xQc’s words “nerfed to irrelevance”. That was that place where if you tried to say something about her in the past you were immediately bullied, harassed and pointed as a “unskilled, braidead, cheater, exploiter Mercy one-trick”. I would never consider anything said there about Mercy as real feedback tbh.
Yes, I’d like that too. Considering that when she had mass rez everyone loved her and the high number of votes she always had every match is a great back up of this (I remember having even 11 votes when now you will have nothing), I would love to go back to that.
According to the best world Mercys, she has not skill ceiling. You are to make us to believe a lie. That won’t happen.
Interesting, that was exactly one of the reasons why the original valk was replaced by mass rez, next to be proved an incredible bad design for the game and Mercy.
Mercy’s pickrates during seasons 2 and 3 want to talk with you. Mass rez wasn’t op at all. After that, her i-frames could have been replaced by flat damage reduction or something else. Also, having a hero pool of only two main supports (Mercy and Ana) didn’t help after the Ana’s overnerf.
There is another option: rework her E and Q, which are her current main problems in terms of design.
Mass rez can be brought back with some QoL changes as it needed since the beginning. Valk tbh is a dead end. Buffs will make Mercy op. Nerfs will make her even more miserable to play. Keeping her as she is will cause them a lot of loses in the end because Mercy’s pickrate is inflated with people who dislike her but still play her. Removing rez is not an option because Mercy’s set is almost all around that ability. So, the only option left is a new rework in the right direction this time.
Okay, so now we are talking about the dive meta… I’ll explain you what happened there with a simple and funny cartoon from Heroes of the Storm. Remember that during that meta, there were only two main supports. This is what happened when you tried to pick Ana with Genji, Tracer and Winston dominating that meta.
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcR1_PPbhTk
A hint, Genji appears from 0:47 to 1:11.
8 Likes
I mean, everyone thought genji was the most balanced hero in the game until there were complaints about him and they nerfed his ult duration and his combo. Complaints followed after that. I should know, I was one of them. That is until I realized it wasn’t that big of a deal.
Many things do not seem that big of a deal until some tweaks or some meta changes and then wowee do they hate it. Another perfect is example is when ow came out of beta and went live and everyone thought all the heroes were balanced.
I like that you did work on this, and I do mostly agree, but I also sometimes disagree.
This is not true. Yeah ppl complained about it, but it was def not the most frustrating. Triple tank and bastion meta are the ones that sucked the most, at least for me.
I’m not denying that there wasn’t a lot of unnecessary flak against mercy and mercy players, but these complaints truly did not come from out of nowhere, nor were they exploitive. Furthermore, hide and rez was not always stated as being the reason for mercy’s pickrate, especially since the best support comp at the time was lucio and zen. It was mostly stated as it not being fun to deal with.
Take hanzo’s scatter for instance. Hanzo isn’t a commonly picked hero. He has no exploit that gets people to play him, but people don’t like dealing with scatter because they felt it was too braindead and unfun. Here we are now, and he’s getting a new ability. This applies to rez changes. To say it was because hivemind thinking is being dismissive about people’s enjoyment of the game.
No healing outside of maybe trans ult, moira’s heal, and maybe ana can outheal winston’s lmb. More importantly, many healing cannot heal multiple allies at once other than lucio (which isn’t as long-ranged and is brief), moira (which requires pretty tight grouping and can’t heal as long), and zen’s trans.
So what I’m saying is that you can’t really downplay it by saying winston can negate it, much like you wouldn’t say trans sucks 'cause it does nothing against self-destruct, because there’s more to it than just negating a ton of damage.
You’ll have another healer with you who will also be healing. Ults typically go off at the same time, so you can dmg boost while a zen trans’s or a moira coalescence.
Not only that, but lucio’s amp it up, again, lasts 3 seconds, heals less, and doesn’t have as much range. Sure, it’s an ability, but in comparison to valk it’s still weaker.
I said that because you’re nitpicking one thing from valk and comparing it to abilites. You said lucio can heal multiple ppl at once. I said so can valk but better range, more heals, and longer duration.
That’s not a bad design at all. Is pharah’s rocket barrage bad design because she can easily be focused down or accidentally shoot herself? No, of course not. Again, there’s more to it than you think there is. It has multi-purposes in a standard team comp for defense and offense.
That’s a lie too.
I am now believing you do use it like a chimp.
Your idea of disengage throughout your entire argument has been to run away and not heal or boost your team. I’m telling you that’s not the case. Yes, you have to take cover, otherwise you’ll just get shot out of the air, but only briefly because you have regen.
You shouldn’t just stay in the air as phara, you shouldn’t just stay in the air like a blimp as mercy. You have to actually MOVE.
What was the thing you said earlier?.. oh yes.
THAT’S A LIE
YOU
HAVE
BRANCH
HEALING
I meant to say team boost. Idk why I said team rez.
Ok wait, so you say that you can battle mercy even though it requires you to be in los of the enemy, but you previously said you can’t be in los with valk because you’ll just die.
What is it then? Can I actually do nothing in valk or not?
You’re right. I read over the “against lucio” part and thought you were saying those are things lucio ult blocks. But reading it over again, you actually agreed with my point. Focus fire is sustained damage. You said sustained damage goes well against sound barrier. So you agreed with me. ok then.
Except that old rez was the exact same but more frustrating and obviously no multiple usage.
The only actual thing to learn about it at the time was timing and what corners to hide behind.
Except that while mercy still had old rez, I’m pretty sure they adjusted the sr system and that hide and rez was still complained about. Because many players didn’t intentionally play mercy knowing full well that there was an exploit behind hide and rez. They knew it was a strategy because there’s not much else to do when your team dies other than hide and rez, but they mostly played mercy because she was finally viable and 'cause they like her and 'cause she was the main healer at the time.
So no, taimou (which I really don’t care that you brought him up) isn’t right here.
That was at the time she didn’t have invincibility. There was a risk when using rez because if you used it 9 times out of 10 resulted in the mercy dying. Which meant your team was down a healer/player. Once rez finally lost its drawback, that’s when the floodgates opened.
Also, how can pharah have here highest pickrate at that time? That makes no sense. If pharah is meta, mercy is automatically meta. The reverse is mostly true but not entirely.
Ok you’re gonna have to show me an actual description of her very old ult for me to get an idea of that. Actually, show me the entirety of her very old kit, then I’ll decide.
Ah ok. Next time I won’t heal anyone other than with my ults 'cause they can just focus targets. Ok boss. Makes sense.
You’re not exposing that there’s no utility to valk you’re only saying that people can still die while being healed in valk which I never stated you can do. I stated that ability to provide to your team becomes amplified because what would previously be provided for one teammate is now provided for the whole team.
It’s dumb nonsense that just reassures me that the last place to look for ideas or balance critique is in the forums. Especially as long as you’re here.
Howa you sey before? Eeeeh…
THASSA LIE
Ok when you said “pro mercy”, I assumed it was someone who’s in owl or has been a part of pro play before in the past consistently enough to keep that title. Instead, it’s a bunch of people who I’ve never heard about and would at most consider to be good at mercy, but certainly not pro. My value of them because of this has dropped and therefore this means nothing to me. Sorry.
To further my point, shadder is a good genji, but if he ever demands a buff for genji it’s really not gonna appeal to me because my opinions don’t align with his.
You’re aware that climbing means to play the game with other people, right? Unless you mean like climbing out of plat then I guess but is still put down by the fact that I saw that on gm streams.
Yeah, again, you’re using people like that eevee and stylosa and I hardly associate with them at all. I don’t even know if you’re trying to appeal to me by mentioning him but i frankly don’t care. It’s not working.
Also, I’m referring to r/overwatch. You’ll have individuals on there in support of many things. They defended brigitte quite a bit and have also hated her on there too.
Read above. You don’t need to reply twice to prove a point.
What in the hell does the voting card system even prove???
Sweet baby jesus…
“According to these people that main genji, he didn’t need his deflect changed. Therefore, if blizz changes genji’s deflect, I’ll commit sudoku!”
And it’s mostly fine now with the exception of you guys tip-tapping away on the forums.
Read above why dmg reduction wouldn’t have helped.
Also, having more than one main healer would literally put mercy back to square one while still having a dumb delete ult. Hence why I said if she had old rez she’d only border on terrible, annoying, or op.
4Head
I’m only pointing this out and not bothering with the rest to say that her pickrate is high because she’s actually good minus the cancer.
Ok… what is this even supposed to mean and how does it correlate to what my reply was about?
If we’re posting random nonsense that has nothing to do with what was being talked about here’s “Steamed Hams” edited to the tune of Feel Good Inc. Pay attention to 2:14-3:08 for something special that still doesn’t pertain to the topic at hand.
h ttps://youtu.be/aRsOBFhNjVM
Look, this back and forth with you is going nowhere. You can have the final say. Idc.
And you’re now glossing over the fact that those streamers and pro players are the reason why Mercy got reworked in the first place. And when the rework became oppressive, as the Mercy players said she would, those same streamers and pro players whined to get her nerfed into oblivion. So, of course, they’re not going to be the ones complaining about how she is now.
4 Likes
This implies that she’s trash tier. She’s definitely not.
You’re also glossing over the fact that there aren’t multiple opinions from multiple people on any of these platforms. I’m honestly not surprise though. You guys view this whole mercy rework thing like the whole world hates you or something.
Mercy was fine until the invincibility buff. Even after that, it was like 1.5 years since launch before the complaints got out of hand. As another poster mentioned in a very lengthy post, Mercy was blamed overall for things that were not even about her and mass rez. Kind of like Dva when Ana was driving the tank meta.
3 Likes
She probably was blamed a lot for random stuff. That didn’t go unnoticed by me. Just saying the strats of mass rez/hide and rez brought out by the invincibility buff was what made people say that mercy wasn’t fun to play or play against.
I understand why people said what they said. I don’t agree with it. I don’t think it was worth reworking a character that was objectively balanced. I don’t think it was worth reworking a character that should have been a lot lower on the list of characters that needed adjustments. And even then, not this massive change.
And for the hide and rez complaints, I want legitimate video evidence of it happening because the examples I’ve seen were pathetic. Hiding from a High Noon? Yeah, that’s definitely her hiding so she can rez… I would love to know how Blizzard determined that it was such a widespread problem. It’s something I asked them months ago. But the moment they mentioned it and the other things in the dev update, Mercy’s fate was sealed. Mercy mains received so much flack after that.
Also, I’m genuinely curious because I didn’t follow the event, but what caused Bastion to be slaughtered with the nerf bat after his crazy changes went live? Or maybe it wasn’t the crazy changes. I can’t remember.
Edit: You said the strats were the the problem — could have been fixed with minor changes, especially if invincibility caused most of the problems. Others say no counter play — could have been fixed with minor changes. Hide and rez could have been fixed with minor changes. And then there is the x5 crowd that think it happened every other game. And you have the people who hate how it undid “all of their hard work” on top of the people who hate rez in general. The complaints are all over the place.
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Well, it’s just my observation. What do you disagree with? if i can ask.
Opinions are different. I heard many say that this was the worst season and i had the same feeling as well. Everything before was okay for me personally. Had no problems with Triple tank, was more fun than Dive in my opinion.
The Mercy meta was probably even worse. But because i knew what is going to happen, i didn’t played comp since my 10 placements in S6.
As i said, the exploit was not the only reason. That’s quite obvious.
And i do understand that if players don’t like something it needs changes.
But the frustration came almost out of nothing after april 2017. The time in which the whole YouTube/Streamer stuff about Mercy started.
I already said it.
I never heard anyone say that Mercy’s Res is frustrating, unfair or annoying to play against before the exploit showed up.
Also, as a side note.
The complains about Mercy being unfair and that came mostly from the fact that her Res was instant. Some thing which could be easily fixed. The res effect was more hated after the OP rework.
I don’t know why they didn’t tried something with Mass Res first.
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In an AoE smaller than Lucio’s aura. So it’s only effective when the team is clumped together. Otherwise you’re still just GA-ing from teammate to teammate if they’re out of reach.
3 Likes
I would agree, and I very much miss having that kind of impact.
Well actually the bottom two paragraphs were the ones that I didn’t agree with.
I think the dive meta does have its place in the suck because it’s managed to carry out for so long.
I also didn’t play mercy meta shortly after her rework but I don’t think I would’ve really hated it that much. I more hate metas that force the entirety of the roster to change. So dive and tank meta, to me, are worse than mercy meta, with the exception to bastion meta 'cause bastion.
I remember that it was shortly after her invincibility buff. No one argued about mass rez before that because they felt that using rez had a cost. After, that cost was gone. People also attributed the sr exploit to mercy’s new invincibility, as I saw that repeatedly posted on twitter, reddit, and stated on stream.
In other words, people mostly associated the hate towards mercy’s invincibility and not towards her rez at first. However, it did shift to her rez anyways.
I think it was because rez as an ult was either too terrible, too good, or too annoying. That was truly solidified when they moved it to an ability which was much was for a while.
Lucio’s crossfade is a 10 meter radius. Mercy’s branch healing extends to other targets that are 10 meters away. That means mercy can heal a target who’s as far as 70 meters away as long as your other allies are branched out properly enough for it to reach that far. On any standard point, she’s healing her entire team.
I have NEVER seen this.
I still have to GA from one side of the point to the other because my team is so spread out.
In other words the teammates STILL HAVE TO BE GROUPED TOGETHER to get that distance.
3 Likes
Have you tried healing the center-most target? That’s usually extends the beams far enough to hit everyone at the front of the fight and in the back, since the targets that stay the furthest back are the most separated.
I have. Once in a great while I can get a whopping 2 people in the chain; while the other 3 I need to GA to, and most of the time I need to still do it separately; especially maps like Numbani, Junkertown, even Anubis where’s there upper and lower levels-cause guess what?
The chain doesn’t connect between levels. I can be healing 2 teammates (usually DPS, an/or sometimes an off tank and DPS) on the top right Of Numbani, then I need to GA down to get my back-line/main tank on point, then GA to the upper left to get my other DPS (usually a sniper), only to GA again back down when my last teammate (usually the flanker) is rushing back.
It’s only useful that one instance when I have two teammates close enough together.
I’ve find it just not useful on maps that have a lot of High Ground and wide spaces…you know maps that are highly receptive to Mercy’s style of play?
Oh sure it could possibly work fine on Anubis, Nepal Sanctum, and other narrow maps like that…but why use Mercy when I rather use Lucio on maps that are so perfectly suited for him?