Exp Card ideas to Fix Tanks

General Discussion
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Define: AntiDive.

Double barrier will become an issue, again.

There is no such thing.

Accretion is not a stun.

This is melee ability. It cannot be Defense Matrix’d unless Defense Matrix starts stopping all melee abilities. Which would be overpowering.

Then all other similar abilities would be stopped by Defense Matrix, that includes beams like Moira’s, Zarya’s and Symmetra’s. Which would be overpowering.

Cooldown would have to be lowered to 6 seconds. Otherwise you can’t have an up to 300 damage ability with an accuracy rating of less than 35% on a 10-second cooldown. Every other hero would be passing by Hanzo and Storm Arrows would be the worse damage ability in the game.

Can’t have this. The cooldown needs to be longer, or you make double-barrier the best overall strategy and composition in the game, again. Until you learn and understand why, this always be a bad change.

Same with this.

There’s nothing wrong with any of them.

This is false.

Yes it would, this also false.

The point is to reduce it’s effectiveness, not increase. This would not help.

This is also false. The problems with Overwatch - particularly it’s tanks - is a fundamental issue. It’s built right into its gameplay systems, and it cannot be changed without a complete rework of what Overwatch is. Something that can’t happen with Overwatch, but can with OW2.

Bad argument.

It’s not about the playerbase, it’s about game balance. Rendering a 25-second cooldown worthless because of a 1-second ability is never good balance or even a good idea.

Quoted for emphasis.

Again this is a bad argument. Strategies exist and metagame compositions are normal player behavior. The point is to make sure that any one strategy is viable, but not dominant. The problem with every metagame composition is that Blizzard does something stupid some months ago and doesn’t start seeing its effects until months later when the metagame shifts because of their frequent tweaking.

We don’t need to call people dumb. Ignorance can be an issue, but as long as they’re willing to learn and take feedback that’s fine. If they’re stubborn, that’s okay, too. Just stop responding to it. But don’t call them dumb, especially when they’re making an effort like this.

These pick rates look pretty normal. Obvious outliers are obvious; but everyone else is getting picked fairly commonly.

This is again, a bad argument. Your solutions won’t help the health of the game.

ALready exists. Your solutions would make D.va dominant and double-barrier dominant.

No one has problems with them.

Wouldn’t happen, either way.

Except this isn’t what happens in Overwatch. Overwatch is not, nor has it ever been a MOBA. It doesn’t even qualify because no such mechanics for the MOBA exists.

Basically what would happen is that Sigma/Orisa become part of the dominant double-barrier metagame and D.va is rendered into worthlessness. Or D.va becomes a dominant for a short time to counteract the current meta before becoming worthless as Double-barrier takes over.

Irrelevant.

Or just go Sigma/Orisa and double barrier, kinetic grasp and fortify for days.

Outsiide of Brigitte and Moth, Roadhog and Genji weren’t deliberately nerfed. Reversions did happen, however.

Aside from this, this is largely community (mis)perceptions. That can have an impact of the general state of the game, but not much impact on the overall balance.

Except you’re not clearly understanding why reliability was a problem (it wasn’t).

You’re close, but not quite there.

Double-barrier still works. Blizzard’s point in reducing its effectiveness wasn’t to make it useless, but to make alternative strategies available and just as effective. Double-barrier became the defacto “best” and “dominant” strategy and no other strategy was working or could work under the then current settings.

Why Reinhardt/Zarya is dominating now, is largely due to a buff made some time ago increase Reinhardt’s health and damage. There was no need for this, this was an attempt by Blizzard to change up the meta strategies that didn’t pan out, but subsequent changes to other outliers (Wrecking Ball) has returned Reinhardt/Zarya back into the metagame. Except, it’s worse now thanks to a buff made some time ago. GM - as always - doesn’t always play to the best or strongest. They play what works best for them. Outliers like Reinhardt/Zarya become dominant because for GM, it’s a composition that works best for them. Blizzard is just making that worse.

Had Blizzard not buffed Reinhardt, and continued to tweaking down the current meta; it’s like that Reinhardt/Zarya would become a strategy and composition equal to that others (or one or two other compositions). But now, we’re seeing the effects of what happens when you buff perfectly fine and well-tuned Tanks.

I imagine that when Reinhardt is eventually tweaked; Orisa will likely see some more serious play thanks to her new crit-immune Fortify.

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That’s some looooooooong walls of text :sweat_smile:

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Long Long Man - YouTube

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70x5 is 350.

Factor in the accuracy and critical hit rate of those Storm Arrows every 10 seconds, and the damage averages are much lower 350, even if the critical hits happened.

And again, there are heroes who can do more with smaller cooldowns and more reliable landings.

It knocks down the target, understand the difference and the nuance.

YOU need to provide the difference, not me. YOU need to prove this, because this is YOUR attempt to change things. Under the game’s rules, Defense Matrix covers projectiles. Shield Bash is not a projectile, it is a melee ability, and if Defense Matrix can cover that, then it must be able to cover all other abilities. That means that Rocket Punch, Accretion, Primal Rage, Reinhardt’s Hammer, Uppercut, Whipshot, Hook, cannot work while Defense Matrix is active.

Now if you want to change those rules, be my guest, but keep in mind that won’t free you from criticism.

So Mei’s primay can now be deflected by Genji then? If Defense Matrix is going to be breaking rules, then D.va is broken. If you’re changing the rules, then Genji can deflect Mei’s primary. You can’t make weird exceptions like this, you need to define the rulesets.

It’s hard to take you seriously when you continue to regard abilities as “trash” like Doomfist and Roadhog.

As for heroes with 300 damage abilities. There’s Reinhardt with up to 600 damage with one Firestrike.

There’s Lucio’s Soundwave with a potential 600+ damage potential environmental kill.

There’s McCree with up 300 damage Fan the Hammer, available every 1.2 seconds. Or twice every 6 seconds.

It’s clear you’re not understanding the point of cooldown timers. Maybe you might understand it this way;

0 second
Firestrike 600 damage
Helix Rock 120
FTH 300x2
Storm Arrow 700

6 seconds
Firestrike 600 damage
Helix Rock 120
FTH 300x2

10 seconds
Storm Arrow 700 damage

12 seconds
Firestrike 600 damage
Helix Rocket 120 damage
FTH 300x2 damage

18 seconds
Firestrike 600 damage
Helix Rocket 120 damage
FTH 300x2 damage

20 seconds
Storm Arrow 700 damage.

In sum time of 20 seconds;
4 instances of Firestrike at 600 damage for 2400
4 instances of Helix Rocket at 120 damage for 480
4 instances of FTHx2 for 300x2 for 2400
3 instances of Storm Arrow for 2100.

Now let’s factor in accuracy. Let’s say 40% for all abilities.
Firestrike is 960
Helix Rock is 192
FTHx2 is 960
Storm Arrow 840

Now critical hit rate, 10%
Storm Arrows 756.

Now if you want to average real numbers for all the above abilities (like Firestrike, Helix Rocket, FTH) and find their real accuracies, you’ll probably find that the numbers would still average around the same numbers as Storm Arrows. It’s fairly certain that FTH has a accuracy of over 60%, as would Helix Rocket.

Behind every barrier there’s a Tank and possibly more shooting through it. It’s not possible to dive through every barrier with smart positioning. Otherwise, were it possible, Reinhardt would not be so dominant.

So there must’ve been a problem with Wrecking Ball when his pick rate was less than 1% in GM a year ago. And clearly, there’s a problem with Ashe right now when she’s below the pick rate of Doomfist. Clearly, pickrates have always indicated that the character is underpowered when they aren’t picked.

Dive isn’t the only strategy. Nor is it the only solution.

Queue times have nothing to do with it. This is about balancing the game. If the game is constantly broken on one side and isn’t fixed, players would still leave in droves.

You need to look at other competitive games and learn and understand why the metagame shifts and settles. You need to understand not every competitive player is picking the top and most powerful heroes in the game in every match-up. The competitive do not pick based on tiers; they pick what they can win with.

Secondly we have evidence. GOATS provided that evidence. GOATS would continue even now were the compositions not locked. Tanks are borderline broken and have been since the beginning of beta. No competitive game gives as much resilience and power to a small subset of heroes as Overwatch does. Tanks are an anomaly; they don’t belong in competitive games.

This is a bad argument. For all of it’s complexity, and unbalanced gameplay and roster, Super Smash Bros. Melee is still popular with a small crowd. As is Marvel Capcom 2; as is Street Fighter 3rd Strike. As is Counterstrike, League of Legends, and DOTA 2.

You’re inferring where there is no inference.

They aren’t. Going in the other extreme is also bad.

I’m pretty sure that D.va lines up with Winston, Sigma and Roadhog in terms of popularity, maybe even more popular than them (based on some anecdotal evidence). So it doesn’t really matter than to a huge chunk of the playerbase what state D.va is in, as long as she’s playable and remains fun. This thread, this forum (and reddit) don’t even constitute 1% of the playerbase and neither does GM.

Most aren’t even aware of the balance changes that happen. Overwatch is old by video game standards. The only ones that play nowadays are general interest latecomers, and die-hards like you. The rest of the players that left Overwatch, aren’t coming back until OW2 or on a rare blue moon. No changes here, otherwise are going to change that.

Dive is not the only solution. You need to be objective.

Hence why no one has a problem with them.

ALl I seem to remember is what you just said. I don’t remember snipers dominating there. If they did, it wouldn’t be called the SuperHog meta.

Neither of which is MOBA tactics.

It wouldn’t. You’re not getting it.

It’s still irrelevant.

Whether it’s 3 meters or 1 meter, Sigma still needs to lead to get good returns for Grasp. And besides that, Grasp has never been a peel, Accretion has.

This will never happen. You need to be objective here.

Right now, Double Barrier is still viable. It’s just not dominant.

This is not going to happen. You need to understand this.

Reading must be so difficult for you. Or you just don’t have patience.

64

A melee ability?
Then it should go through barriers!
Why does it not? Why barriers only block this specific melee ability, but not the others?
Why Devs introduced inconsistency on purpose into the game?
I’m confused.

65

This video has always bothered me.

I actually lost some respect for the Kap here. Saying that people who are mid rank and below don’t “play the META correctly” is, in my opinion, to bolster the precieved difficult of the play school shooter he created.

I played Dive a multitude of times. It’s a rather simplistic composition. All Kap does is rebut that with “naw uh”. He doesn’t even explain why the META compositions are difficult to play. I think it’s because even he knows it was a load of ____ ____.

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I feel like this would make dva into a must pick at high tiers to ensure anti-dive doesnt get value against dive

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It’s a melee ability that uses a barrier as the weapon to intiate. Barriers-vs-barriers don’t work well.

I’m still confused why Accretion works like Rocket Punch, but knocks down like Earthshatter.

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Even if Dive could be played. For mid/low ELOs it’s going to at least only be comparable in strength to a basic deathball comp.

Even when it may be dominant in GM/Masters.

Heck with a setup like this, you’d probably end up with high tier meta alternating between Brawl and Dive.

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Perhaps I phrased that incorrectly.

Doom and Roadhog have strong abilities, but their usage without abilities is relatively weak.

Hanzo by comparison, is pretty much the only hero with really strong capabilities outside of stormarrow, and hucking out more than a Junkrat Tire’s worth of damage in 1.5sec.

The idea that “Gigantic damage abilities” are somehow normal on this game, isn’t accurate.

Heck, even with the nerfs I suggested, Hanzo would still be putting out more than a Pulse Bomb’s worth of damage.

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I think you missed my point.

Example:

The owner of a Starbucks being interviewed about their coffee.

Scenario 1;

Interviewer: “So tell us about your coffee.”

Starbucks representative: “Its the best coffee ever created. We have the most delicate and complicated coffee making procedure the world has ever seen.”

Scenario 2;

Interviewer: “So tell us about your coffee.”

Starbucks representative: “Our coffee actually tastes like ____, we aren’t sure why people even buy it.”

Which interview do you think will actually happen?

I am aware that Kap was being interviewed about the game he created in the capacity of how it was doing and where it was going. If memory serves me, this was during GOATS era Overwatch League.

I would personally attest to GOATS being a difficult composition to emulate for the masses.

However,

The numerous META injections that preceeded it were, to be blunt, quite elementary. Double Winston, Tracer, Lucio. Bayblade, Triple and quad tank, Nano-(whatever is best), Triple DPS. All those META compositions were plug and play like Dive.

Kap wants his game to be complicated and have some value in intricacy. Problem is, its not that. Never has been and never will be. Its babies first FPS.

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What’s with the community and Dva buffs?

1 Like
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I think Kap’s point was “Just because we picked the meta heroes, doesn’t mean they are actually executing a GM tier strategy with those heroes”.

Like delusional Hammond mains who run around like a fat Tracer, insisting that they are fulfilling the function of a main tank.

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This is actually just a simplified version of this thread, with hardly any D.va buffs.

Balancing to solve "Rein or Lose"

I’m more-so looking for a way of disarming the close range defences of DoubleBarrier.

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Okay, in that respect, so be it. You truly will not see Silver, Gold, Platinum players execute Grand Master strategy of the META heroes. But, on the flip side, how could you? If you are in Gold, how can you possibly play a GM game, if your enemy is also Gold?

One of the more funny things about Dive was, the first team to pick it was generally going to win.

Why?

Because by the time the other team switched to counter, and the only counter being Dive, you already had the predominant Ult economy established. They couldn’t, outside of luck or really bad play, counter your ultimate’s when necessary. And you didn’t have to be GM for that to work. It was the essence of Dive.

My take on GOATS is the same as this really. I had, during GOATS META, only played a single game in Platinum against a team running GOATS. They failed miserably because their communication was absolute garbage. This wasn’t required for the META compositions before it, and I would posit that it didn’t require that level of communication for the META’s after it either.

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It literally tells you “enemy stunned” when it adds to your on fire rating.

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I love people being rude for no reason :slight_smile:

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This just feels like you want to force a dive meta. The problem is not the kind of meta, it’s the meta stagnating and people getting tired of it, so no matter how fun your dive is, after a month people will complain and want a new meta.

What’s the point of this post with the “keep DoubleBarrier in check” when it isn’t even meta atm? And why so many buffs to DVA when she already is Meta? This would eventualy hurt tanking more than help, when DVA would become so much stronger she completly outshines the Rein Zarya dou making it Rein DVA?

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  1. You already picked up in how Rein/D.va would be a Brawl/Rush comp, not a Dive comp. So I could easily see the meta bounce between those.
  2. High tier has been wanting Full Dive back, ever since 3 years ago. They were pretty ecstatic when they got it for about a month in October.
  3. You’re right, solving high tier such it naturally has multiple metas isn’t going to happen with balance. You’d need something like a ban system or a Pick system. Balance changes like this would probably buy them about 6 months before they need to make a system to mix things up at high ELO.
    Pick system, instead of Bans
  4. This post is not really about solving high tier for the sake of high tier though. It’s about removing the roadblocks to high tier, to allow for a much higher degree of Tank variety for the other 95% of the playerbase.
  5. Devs need to solve queue times, and that ties in heavily with Tank design. And you can’t have two good SingleBarrier Tanks at mid/low ELOs without causing DoubleBarrier at high ELO. Unless you disarm the “AntiDive bodyguards” that DoubleBarrier could use.
  6. Even the BlizzCon changes with Rein having an 800hp barrier would likely cause DoubleBarrier. Because of it’s flat-out advantage in barrier breaking, raw barrier hp, and barrier regen.
  7. So it’s pretty unavoidable, if they want to fix Tank variety and queue times for 95% of their playerbase, that they will need a way to keep DoubleBarrier in check.