That’s a fair point. At the highest levels I completely understand having high risk, high reward heroes be frequently played over other alternatives. After all, that’s what makes good balance (you can see earlier in this thread how balance does need to be based around the tiers of play somewhat and that goes hand-in-hand with this discussion). As long as at the ranks where the majority of players are (i.e. middle of the pack) there is a variety of heroes at all different skill risk and reward levels (because it is middle of the pack after all), the game will feel healthier and better off in my opinion. While I don’t think Brig is broken right now, I do think old Mercy was and I completely understand that sentiment. Brig and DF just aren’t to that point yet, nor should they be, but nerfing them just because they take less risk for a higher reward (which is not much of a higher reward compared to where they used to be in my opinion) shouldn’t be a reason to balance. If they are fun where they are at and the only ones complaining are the players who play the heroes they counter (even if they are high risk high reward), then that seems kinda biased to me. At higher ranks, by all means, adjust them there, but don’t cater to the people in the majority because they are just following the opinions of higher ranked players or holding a personal grudge.
Wow. That was a tangent. I try to refrain from keeping my responses that long, but you brought a lot of points to discuss.
A good example of a hero that takes good game sense is also Junkrat, Doomfist, and McCree because of their ability to flank and pick off healers and DPS heros.
Most people think Flash and Fan strat is a “low skill” maneuver but its not. A lot of that requires accuracy and timing and a good sense of where your enemy is and the ability to discern the enemy attack patterns.
If a Tracer is flanking the SAME route every push, you can anticipate their approach and exploit that repetitiveness. If that player decides they want to ridicule you for reading their pattern and exploiting the advantage, that just means that player needs to alter their attack strategy so they can’t get caught again.
Junkrat is a weird one to discuss. You cant aim directly at your target. There is a significant arc to his attacks. That means you have to have a good sense of the environment to make the grenades go where you want them. And that takes a LOT of spacial awareness and thinking in geometric terms. And like McCree, if you know the attack patterns of the enemy you can place that trap accordingly to kill a flanking Genji or Tracer.
A lot of heros do have higher mechanical skill ceiling where you have to make split second decisions, and some heros take a degree of forethought and preparation where you have to anticipate player movement.
You simply cant compare a Genji and a Junkrat because their kits and mechanical skill sets are vastly different.
Let’s face it. You almost NEVER see high level players use fan the hammer on squishies.
Why? Because why fan the hammer when you can headshot them.
If we apply this to what you just said regarding tracer, flashbang and headshot kills tracer instantly so in a sense, that’s what people mean by flash and fan being “low skill”. The flash isn’t the part, it’s the fan the hammer.
The problem here is that you are measuring each hero with the same stick. If we balanced Mercy like we did Mccree, this would be a completely different game and I assure you that a lot of people would be very upset with the outcome. If we measure each hero by a different stick, one that takes into account their counters and purpose as a hero among other things, then we can get more unique heroes and emphasize different skills for different players. Some of us like to play Mercy because she feels fast and loose and slippery. Some of us like to play Mccree because he feels challenging and powerful when you’ve mastered his mechanics. There are different reasons to love each hero, so we can’t balance each hero with the same goal in mind.
Eddie that’s not the point. You can easily miss that one shot on a Tracer simply because you timed it poorly and she still has rewind available.
No you might not use it on a Tracer as often because you definitely could 1 shot her to the face, but that strat also works on other larger targets as well like Hog, Winston and other heros with large hitboxes.
For the sake of actually doing damage I’d rather use Fan in most occasions against a Tracer and miss maybe 2-3 hits, than risk the headshot and miss completely. Usually depends on how good the tracer is. If they are a poor Tracer I will do the one shot to the head, if its a decent tracer I will use Fan to at least bait out her Recall and have an easier time killing her a few seconds later if she decides to come back.
On some maps and some game modes, simply doing guaranteed damage can be a better option in many situations instead of getting the kill. It makes someone retreat for a health pack and makes them alter their attack. Like when a McCree shoots at a Pharrah. Yeah getting the outright kill is nice, but knowing that she has to go get heals can provide openings in defense and shift the healers focus off the main fight. I do it to draw out Mercy all the time when a Soldier on my team has his ult so he can kill Mercy in the air.
Those are strategies that win out in the long term rather than the short term in many scenarios. Influencing player action and forcing them to do something they would normally have not done is a great way to win team fights. Like kiting a tank and making them waste an ult. I did that with my Orisa yesterday on Bosan. I ran off to the edge and basically baited the Reinhardt into charging me but I Stood Ground and tossed my shield behind him so the Ana could not hit him for heals or me with a sleep dart. I used Halt and yanked him off the edge.
its those unconventional strategies that win matches because you learn how to divide the enemy team and pick them off for a quick advantage.
Yes, at the higher tiers of play, it is more consistent and practical to land a headshot or two (depending on the hero that was flashed) on a stunned target. Those players are at the point where they can use that skill instead of fan the hammer and they need to because the games are far more fast-paced and doing things quickly and precisely is what wins you games.
At lower tiers of play, fan the hammer is the more reliable option because games are slower paced, require much less precision, and a lot of players haven’t gained access mechanically to that skill yet. Fan the hammer works better in those instances for those players.
Each of those skills has it’s own place in the ranked environment and that is perfectly acceptable. It’s what makes Mccree one of the heroes people can migrate up the ladder with and still learn new things all the time. While to a higher tier player, fan the hammer might be useless, to a lower tier player, it might be incredibly useful. Different skills being useful at different levels of play and an abundance of those skills on each hero is something I really like. For some, ideally, every hero would scale up the ladder evenly, but the way we have it, some heroes see less play further up the ranks because the heroes with generally higher skill ceilings get access to these useful skills that make them excel further. There are pros and cons to both of these approaches, so we as a community need to help the devs decide where to draw the line and how to draw it through constructive, well-though-out feedback.
Thanks for the comment, it gave me a lot to write about.
Just going to add another note for you Gipsy. Gold matches can be VERY fast paced. It just depends on who you are placed with and against. There are some matches that get VERY close, or go for 4 rounds on Payload maps. I love those matches because its a back and forth struggle, but its a fair struggle and it is very exciting when you get placed with players who are at the same skill set. Those games are a complete adrenaline rush for me, even in Gold, because every tier has its obstacles.
You might face a player you just had on your team for example. There are times where you might get that same person on your team 3 matches in a row, and then they are on the other team for the 4th match. That’s when things get complicated because you know their strengths and sometimes you also know their weaknesses.
There are plenty of players like me who have skill sets that are technically higher than their skill tier we are in. The only variable is when you get placed with players who have a lower mechanical skill set than you and poor game sense. That is what ultimately swings the odds in your teams favor as it would when I am against a poorly performing team. its hard to feel good about facing players that do not have the same skill set I do because it doesn’t seem fair from either side of the equation.
You are absolutely right. Maybe I didn’t explain myself well enough when it came to the “fast-paced” thing. There are gold games that are very exhilarating, high-energy, and fast-paced. Hell, there are bronze games that are like that. In comparison to high tier Overwatch though, it is a different kind of fast-paced. It feels and plays differently in those ranks, but is still the same energy and pacing that a lot of Overwatch games at any level have. I hope that clarification helps.
Also, yeah, both stomping and getting stomped in any ranked game is no fun. I’m in complete agreement with you on that.
Yeah. A lot of decent players have to suffer at the expense of the few poor players. It stinks.
I am not saying that I am pro. Not saying that I am GM material. Just saying that within my skill tier, I know that I have more game sense and skill overall than many of the players in this tier. The good compliments and praise far outway the bad ones. But the simple fact is that even with a 61% winrate, you ultimately lose more than you gain in terms of SR. Especially when you have boosters, throwers, trolls and leavers who turn a difficult situation into an impossible one.
Because getting high ground when you can and staying behind tanks (majority of what “positioning” is) can be accomplished with a sticky note on your monitor. It’s a much easier skill to develop than clicking heads or one clipping someone as tracer.
Kind of like comparing lifting 200lbs. Clicking heads is curling 200lbs, positioning is deadlifting 200lbs (much easier for the uninitiated).
you might as well say 2+2=4 is an opinion because you believe it’s 6. most people understand what’s being said about skill and just because you don’t or you have a problem with it doesn’t make them wrong.
Hey I agree with you, the thing is is that we need to think of every little thing. I have a formula for overwatch. It is 20% Maximum mechanical skill, 20% Game sense (Knowing ult charge and positioning of both enemy and friends), 20% ability usage and knowing when to use them, 20 % synergy with your teamates ( communication and planning) and the most important 20%, Having FUN. Let’s look at an example, A rein may be “low mechanically” skilled than a Genji, but the Rein’'s specialization skill is knowing when to ult and who has ult, while genji is knowing when to strike and kill like a ninja😀. The rein take’s more game sense skill and the genji take’s more mechanical skill. Ana who I play a lot takes A LOT more skill than both because she is a character who can maintain all these skills and can change the tide of the battle.
This is a very good way of looking at it! I love your take on it. Share this around to others if you can because honestly, this is the kind of insightful discussion I want this post to focus on, not just constantly berating others for having a different viewpoint on a subjective topic.
(To the others who are doing the berating, I know you want to add your take on it and I appreciate that, but please acknowledge while the majority opinion is widespread, it does not make it a fact. This is all still subjective and it should be treated as such. Be respectful to other’s viewpoints and personal experiences, even if they are in the minority.)
But the simple fact is that even with a 61% winrate, you ultimately lose more than you gain in terms of SR. Especially when you have boosters, throwers, trolls and leavers who turn a difficult situation into an impossible one.
Obviously a problem with your own gameplay if you’re losing more than gaining in gold
While you make a valid point, I don’t think we need to go around announcing what’s wrong with people’s games that we aren’t even playing in. Could you be right? Absolutely and it’s likely you are, but unless we know his games for sure, I think we should ask him why he feels this way and how to improve it instead of telling him he’s just “bad”. He might not even be trying to climb and just have fun in gold for all we know. I mean, that’s what I do.
There is a reason for the forums to exist, to provide discourse and insightful discussion about this fantastic game we all play. However, as long as the majority of people on these forums are childish and stubborn, not taking other opinions into account and claiming their (or other people’s) opinions as facts, the forums will remain a difficult place to voice your opinions and civilly discuss topics within the community, including those with different perspectives. I’ll still be here trying though. After all, someone has to.
People at higher ranks don’t flash+fth not because it’s cheap, because they have the consistency if being able to hit headshots on a basically a standing target. Fth takes all your ammo and forces you to reload while HS only takes one shot and you have the rest of the magazine to continue the fight.
Flash+fth on squishies is seen as low skill simply because people use it to compensate for their mechanics and not because it’s efficient. However fth is still a part of McCree’s skillset after all and there are definitely usecases for it such as bursting shields or tanks.
Like I said Gipsy, I have been at the Platinum threshold half a dozen times only to have it cinched away by leavers throwers and griefers. Its not always lack of skill that prevents players from ranking up. It is often the ineptitude and incompetence of fellow players who either have less skill them their tier rank needs or they are actively sabotaging matches to make life harder for people who know what they are doing.