Ooooookay, the moment you said she’s “low tier” shieldbreak I no longer take this discussion seriously. Clearly i’m dealing with a troll or someone completely unreasonable.
Not to mention she has arguably the most crowd control in the game on one character, because she can literally become anyone and get their ult before they can.
You are lacking in the soft mushy apparatus that allows you to be capable of accepting the cold hard facts. You are incapable of accepting than an explosion is happening right in front of you and as such, you convince yourself it didn’t happen
It just goes to show that no one thinks about it. They just see and make comment. You’ve been doing a sterling job stating facts and shutting down the clowns who have no real argument to present.
Okay, let me rephrase: “Low tier if your tanks know what they are doing.”
Her shield break is all in her beam. She pops the beam, drop the shield (or step in front of it) and face tank the piddly damage (basically Moira’s beam) it does to targets not below 50%, then put shield back up. Outside the beam, her primary and stickies together are less shield break than most of the heroes*. Good tanks already do something similar with putting shield up and down (or stepping in front of it and then backing up) to extend its life and get heals while it is up. They just now have to watch for the 50% and be ready to drop it when she beams.
*(Lets give Echo the benefit of saying she hits all the stickies and the tank doesn’t drop them before they explode. Total damage would be 180 with a 6 second cool down. That works out to 30 dps. That is less than Moira’s primary. Echo’s primary with all of them hitting is just barely above Zen’s. So, Echo’s shield break potential outside the beam is just below Moira and Zen regular attack. Not what I would call impressive.)
So, for 15 secs she can match the CC of what someone on the other team has the whole time, at the cost of an ult. And you call that the most CC?!
See, here is where you show you have not really thought about it. She doesn’t actually get their ult before they can. You are forgetting that she has to generate her ult before she can clone someone and then get their ult. And her ult is not a fast one to generate. You are only thinking about her already having the ult and how fast she gets the clone ult after that. But, you have to consider the time it takes for her to get her ult to start with.
Thanks. Honestly though, I don’t think it is clowns for the most part, those there are certainly some. People just don’t really know and have been given false information or only seen a part of it. They see a bunch of youtubers rant about how OP they think she is, or see posts on it, or etc. They don’t really know. And she is new, so people don’t really have a grasp on her, so just start listening to the herd rather than looking for the facts. It is sadly a very human thing to do.
For a fun look at just how powerful the herd mentality can be: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IJCXXTMrv8
So why are we only talking about Rein/Sigma? We just ignoring Orisa? Fact is, it’s a team game and your team is going to be helping you with shield break. It’s going to be a very common occurrence for the Echo to be able to wait for the shield to reach half health before using her beam. Not to mention, if an ability forces a tank to pull away their shield, that in itself has enormous value. Her beam lasts 2.5 seconds. That’s 2.5 seconds of the tank not being able to shield. How long do you think it takes a team to focus a tank down to half health when there’s no shield present? I guarantee it’s less than 2.5 seconds, and her beam will have at least a second or more of it’s full damage potential to use against the unshielded tank.
Yes, because she can choose the best type of CC for a scenario without having to die/walk back to the spawn room and switch characters.
Lol, of course i’ve thought about that. I just didn’t know we were apparently only talking about a scenario from the beginning of the game to when they get their first ult. I don’t remember ever saying that was the specific scenario we were talking about.
You missed the “or step in front of it” part of the post? I also repeated it a bit down when I said “or stepping in front of it and then backing up.” Which leads me to believe either you are just skimming and so not really considering anything, or you are intentionally strawmanning.
No, the team is going to be doing the majority of the breaking.
And come on man. You just basically argued she was good at shield break because the team was going to help her break it. Echo is a good hero, but shield break is not really one of her strengths.
Good tanks ALREADY do this. They drop their shields and eat some damage. Then they put them back up and get healed. It extends the life of a shield and lets you take advantage of healing while there is a shield. If you just hold it till it breaks you don’t get that breather to get healed back up. This is not a new tactic for tanks.
I thought you said this was a team game. Does the tanks team not count? You don’t get to invoke ‘the team will help her do it’ without also accounting for the tanks team. You are back to the ‘she is OP because she can do X with the help of her team.’ If you invoke her team helping her get the tank low you have to consider the enemy team shielding/healing him and pushing back against Echo’s team.
No, she can’t. She can choose based on what is already on the field. And even then, the enemy is already on the field with the same CC ability.
Then you just chose to ignore it. You are cherry picking. ‘Well, if we ignore the fact that she has to generate her ult first, then she gets the ult in her ult so much faster.’
No, you contended that she was OP because she got the clone ult so much faster than the hero she cloned. But, you either didn’t think about or chose ignore the larger picture in order to frame a narrative.
Lets go back:
At the bare minimum it is disingenuous to try and play the ‘Well, I was only talking about that little window where she has already generated her ult and they haven’t done anything.’
No, I just assumed you meant Sigma with his matrix ability, or referring to the off tank covering for you. Stop being an a**.
No, that’s not my argument. Now you’re the one actually straw-manning. My argument is that she is good at shield break in the context of a team fight, not when she’s the only one shooting a shield. Because let’s be honest, when would that be the case? Probably pretty darn rare, unless it’s you and an Orisa left on point or something. When you look at shield break potential, you consider how effective they are in the actual game. Like Bastion of course has the best shield break, but it’s not always viable to run Bastion. You have to be able to safely set up with him first. And with Echo, my point is her ‘set up’ is going to happen very frequently, so she will frequently be able to use the full effectiveness of her shield break.
Do you understand my argument now? Or are you just going to simplify it again to make it easier to contest?
No sh*t. But there’s a massive difference between a tank choosing when to drop his shield and eat damage, versus being forced to. In one case, he’s likely going to do it when he knows potentially lethal damage isn’t coming in. In the other, he’s being forced to drop his shield and may very likely die because of it.
Yes, obviously. What is your point here? You could say this about literally any character interaction in the game. You’re giving me the same argument Doomfist mains give when defending why he was balanced back when he was overtuned to all hell. “Just have your team bubble/matrix you, etc. He’s fine”. Not realizing that’s putting your entire fate in the hands of another player hopefully paying attention and having that cooldown available. Teamplay should of course be a factor when balancing, but it shouldn’t be the ONLY counter (not saying Doomfist has no counters, this was their argument when saying any hero could play fine against him as long as they had a Zarya/Diva). If you want to look at balance as a scale, then consider the benefit Echo gets from this interaction, versus the counteractions the enemy team has to respond with. My point is the value of this interaction is extremely high.
Again, no sh*t. And each player only has those specific CC abilities available to them. Echo has the freedom to choose her CC abilities based on what the moment calls for. You are comparing ONE player to an entire team. How are you not getting this?
Uhhh, no? That’s literally not the scenario I was talking about. You are misreading what i’m saying. I’m saying once she steals someone, she gets their ult extremely fast. And if she steals a character who has an ult that takes forever to charge, she gets a ton of value.
So, you are saying you made an assumption that you could only make if you were not even thinking about what was said? I never said Rein or Sigma. I said drop the shield or step in front, that covers all the shield tanks. I stand by you jumped to a conclusion because didn’t think it through or you intentionally choose to ignore it.
That is not being an “a**.” You made a claim intended to dismiss what I said. I showed how that claim was wrong.
Here is the thing though. I have already shown how she, herself, is not a good shield break. It doesn’t matter if it is just her or the whole team, she is not a good shield breaker. The total damage from a team is going to break a shield fairly quick, regardless of who the team is. That does not make every member of the team good at shield break.
Yep, and I have already shown how little threat to a shield she represents. She has 1 ability that can be good at it if the tank doesn’t respond. But, since there is an easy way to respond in actual game play she is not good at shield break.
The thing is, she wont. At best she will have a chance to use it once every 8 secs. And since the tank CAN effectively mitigate it NEARLY EVERY time, it wont be practically used often.
Cute. Wrong, but cute. I have provided detailed explanations about why something wont work in practice. I have even shown the numbers. Just because you say something doesn’t make is so.
Tanks have to respond to what is coming in. This is no different. You don’t think tanks respond differently when Hanzo is spamming their barrier vs D.Va? Or when D.Va pops a self destruct vs when Soldier is ulting? Or etc, etc. Tanks have to respond to what is coming in. That is what separates good ones from bad ones. This is no different. There is play and counter play. They will have to keep an eye on their health and make sure they are not dropping the shield at 55% and taking damage that wont be healed up before the shield goes sub 50%. But, good tanks will do that.
One of two things have to happen for him to be in a position to die if he drops the shield to avoid her beam. One, he made a mistake. Maybe he is out of position and not getting heals. Maybe he let himself take to much damage right before. Etc, etc. If he screwed up and gets punished for it, that is how it should be. Or two, the attacking team is doing a better job than his team. Again, he WONT die to Echo while the shield is down, her beam is terrible unless the target is low health. So, you are again invoking the whole team piling on him in order to kill him. But you are ignoring his team. So, if the team attacking him is doing a better job, they deserve to win.
/facepalm
Look, you can look at it one of two ways. You can take the interactions just between the two. Or you can take the interactions between team and team. You have been trying to say Echo + her team can do X to a single hero, so Echo is OP. You don’t get to have it both ways.
And this is were you really go off the rails. I explained how she could be countered. It was you that responded, ‘no cause her team will help her.’ I said, fine his team should help him as well. Echo can be countered without the team.
Yes, please do. I have already provided numbers and examples. Echo is not the crazy destroyer you make her out to be.
How are you not getting that Echo is still one player? She gets the abilities of another hero for 15 secs in an ULT. For 15 secs she can match what someone else already there can do. This does not mean she somehow has more. She can match as in equal one hero for 15 secs what the here does all the time. You are saying that for 15 secs she can equal what another hero can do and that means she has more CC than they do.
You realize her ult cost is on the higher side? The heroes with higher ult charge also tend to do a fair bit more sustained damage, so likely will still get ult quicker.
Now, yes her ult can give value. IT SHOULD. It is an Ult. She has to get their ult fast or it would be pointless to every switch.
It is still disingenuous to ignore her own ult generation rate in discussing her ‘getting the cloned ult faster than another hero.’
In other news Widow can one shot 4 of the 6 heroes on your team from any distance she has LOS on them. No one complains about this though.
I think only her ult should get a nerf. The other parts of her kit are acceptable.
But no hero should be allowed to get multiple ults by using only one ult. That’s just dumb and overpowered. ESPECIALLY WHWN YOU CAN HAVE 31+ TYPES OF ULTS…
OHH AND LET’S JUST GIVE HER AM EXTRA LIFE CUZ WHY NOT.
No. Simply just no. Her ult needs a tons of nerf.
Your quote: “She pops the beam, drop the shield (or step in front of it) and face tank the piddly damage (basically Moira’s beam) it does to targets not below 50%, then put shield back up”. I asked why we weren’t talking about Orisa. You said you meant Orisa by “stepping in front”. Because I initially thought you weren’t talking about Orisa (are you keeping up with me here? I can try to slow down or be more clear if you like), I assumed you meant Sigma or Zarya. Again. I know you never specifically said Rein or Sigma. I misinterpreted. It was an honest mistake. I firmly stand by the fact that you’re being an a* by trying to turn it into something more.*
But who cares about that? Like why would we even consider her shield break when it’s only her shooting the shield? The FACT is, which you keep on ignoring, she is capable of doing 500 damage to shields with just her beam ability. That’s 200 more damage than storm arrows, and Hanzo is widely regarded is having fantastic shield break.
No, you havn’t. Because a tank not responding for an entire two and a half seconds is not a viable response. The Echo is still getting a ton of value for that.
But they can’t.
No, you actually havn’t. I just gave you some numbers though which I guarantee you’re going to ignore or dismiss.
I’ve already pointed out that Hanzo has nearly half her shield break potential. And those other two examples you gave are ultimates. Why are we talking about ultimates in terms of shield break now? Like if a Hog pops Whole Hog, obviously shields are going to get deleted. But that’s an ultimate. Oh, btw. Since we are talking about ultimates now, remember Echo can just steal the enemy Hog and use Whole Hog to instantly delete the enemy’s shields.
This is a massive oversimplification of how Overwatch plays out. I can’t tell your rank because your profile is private (not surprised in the least), but i’m assuming you’re Plat from the way you talk about the game.
No, again you’re misrepresenting my argument. Actually…here it’s just flat out that you don’t understand it. The facepalm is quite fitting, because you literally just…can’t understand my argument. Yikes. I’m guessing you’re one of those people who is unable to see nuance and sees every issue as either black or white, and deals in absolutes like “never” and “always”. My least liked kind of person, frankly.
Except when she can get their ultimate twice in 15 seconds? Or are we conveniently going to ignore that part?
YOU’VE ALREADY SAID YOURSELF SHE’S AVERAGE IN TERMS OF ULT COST. LIKE WHAT??? You’re ACTUALLY so disingenuous you’re purposefully contradicting yourself to make a point. You’re a total joke.
I agree wholeheartedly. I like her base kit but her ult devalues the individuality of OW characters. It hurts playing rein and getting double shattered by the other team’s Echo-Rein
No, I didn’t say Orisa. I covered what ALL the shield tanks can do. Rein or Sigma can drop their shield. Sigma, Orisa or Winston can step in front of it.
Because you made an assumption and didn’t take the time to consider it.
Nice little ad hominem. Doesn’t help your argument.
I didn’t try to turn it into more. I said A or B, where A was you made a mistake because you jumped to a conclusion.
Because people are claiming SHE is a good shield breaker, and she just isn’t.
Only IF the shield is below 50% and IF the tank does not react to it. Why is it the expectation that the tanks would not have to react to a hero?
Hanzo is a fantastic shield break because he can damage the shields a ton and you CAN’T drop the shield to stop it or you take that full damage in the face. Also, his non-storm arrow primary fire is a good chunk of damage, that being roughly 166 dps constantly being pumped into the shield. Added together he can keep a pretty significant and constant pressure on the shield.
She is really not though. Remember, if she keeps channeling the low damage beam you have one of your damage characters doing support level damage. So, sure getting the tank to lower his shield could be nice. But it is mitigated by the low damage she is then doing while he regens shielding and can put it back up for heals after. So, circumstantially useful. Not game breaking.
The only reason they wouldn’t is if they A) had allowed themselves to take a bunch of damage right before using the shield at >50% or B) were way out of position. Either situation is either the tank making a mistake or the other team out doing his teams damage.
You mean the 2.5 secs of Moira level damage? Not sure how you think that supports your argument.
No, he has more. He has a constant high damage attack that can just be spammed into the shield. Additionally, since his arrows can 1 shot heroes, the tank has less freedom to shield dance. The moment he drops the shield, someone in the back could just instantly die. Even with the beam, Echo is less dangerous to drop the shield for.
They where just examples of how tanks respond differently to different heroes. For some more, tank shield dance is different for fighting Mei that McCree. Also different for fighting Hog than Wrecking ball. Tanks need to adjust to what they are fighting. That is the nature of it.
Lets assume there is a hog. But again, ults are ults. And, while we are on it, Hog is another hero that even outside of Ult is a far better shield break than Echo.
Ad hominem attempt here. First off, my profile is the way it is because I don’t care to change it. I never touched the settings. Second, it doesn’t matter. I could be anything from Bronze to top 500. Talk about the arguments, don’t try the ‘you are only this rank so you don’t count.’
Not really. It might have lots of back and forth. But ultimately if a tank is about to die and a weak shield there is really only two basic reason.
No, it is clear that you just want to have it both ways. This is a tired and very old argument. It was used in the Doomfist arguments you referenced and you are using it again. It is just a reversed target. Sure, people said ‘oh, you can counter Doomfist with a team’ and then ignore Doomfists team. And that was a wrong argument. But, so is ‘Echo and her team counter tanks’ and then ignore the tanks team.
And back to the ad hominem. Brazenly false ones as well.
Depends on the hero. It is not possible to get the ult twice for some heroes. And others, if you do get the second ult it deletes the first.
Lets look at the heroes with some form of CC and and ult she might be able to get twice.
Rein: This is the best change. If the enemy doesn’t stop her, sure she can potentially get the shatter twice.
Doomfist: Possible to get a double ult, but with the time to get ult, time to cast ult, time for ult to hit, it is pretty unlikely.
Sigma: Same as Doomfist. She can theoretically get it twice, but it is going to be exceedingly rare.
So, the reality is there is one hero that both has CC and has a decent chance of a double ult.
Now the real kicker, here is a little nuance for you. Does it matter? Not really. The VAST, VAST majority of cases she gets a double ult it is just gravy for a highlight reel. If she is doing well enough for that, the fight is almost always going to be won by the time the second ult comes around.
No, I did not. Her ult cost is higher than more than half the heroes. Its not the highest, but the ones higher tend to have a lot of sustained damage.
You are either confusing me with someone else, or you are just full of it. Either way it makes you look like a
At this point i’m spending way too much energy arguing a trivial disagreement over a video game of all things. We’re literally in a global pandemic and this is the least of things that I have to worry about. You’re just not worth the stress and high blood pressure. Perhaps I would have continued if you hadn’t kept gravitating towards being so abrasive, to which I responded in kind. Have a good one.
Echo launched meta like Sigma did
Do you know who didn’t but people constantly complain about ruining the game?
Brigitte
It took almost 4 months before she became meta
So, I’ve started playing OW again (quarantine, am I right?), and I’m going to change my stance and say “Echo isn’t all that bad”. She does need some number tuning and her ult needs some fixing (extra lives is stupid), but she hasn’t been the terror I thought she’d be. Beam damage is a bit high, and her flight cooldown should be increased just a little, but I don’t think she’s all that much of a problem.
You know, I’m just not sure about her anymore. I still feel like she’s deciding a lot of matches and I can carry sometimes when I play her. But other people seem pretty convinced she’s not and her stats don’t say she’s too overpowered if at all. It’s hard to know.
Don’t forget Rework Mercy.
Plenty of dps wreck her.
Widow is good against her… like Widow just in play restricts echo from playing at her most effective
I have to put all my resources to usually get the widow which should be used to help the team more.
Widow alone is a hard and soft counter for just existing in the match.
then add mccree into the game and in most cases i would swap.