… Zen… Brig… they basically… have the exact same heals as this supposed Symm… she also has literal extra teammwide health. She doesn’t need super high heals, because it isnt necessary, once again run a main healer lol
Of course she has to stay somewhat near teammates thats common sense, but she doesn’t have to CHASE THEM DOWN. Your argument is she chasing people down, thats just not true, your team in this rework would want to stay around YOU.
She has a teleporter for this reason? You go in place her turrets and rush with your team, then use the turrets to reinforce said area you took. That is literally claiming area, and reinforcing it. She still has her teleporter to get in there and do her job
Ah yeah they totally did that on point B of Hanamura lol. /s
So my support Symm has no teleporter to do said thing? Ok.
And you think she would be a viable healer? I have my doubts honestly. Just because a heroes LORE makes for a healer doesn’t mean they would be a good healer. Heroes like Ana, Bapt, Lucio and Zen would likely still be better.
As much as I love Symmetra’s lore, that is no excuse for making her not fun to play
I would love a rework but not a Healer rework.
And I’m not saying that healers are not fun to play, I play a lot of them actually
All supports require you to be in their effective range. Why is it suddenly different for Symmetra? Teleporter allows you to rotate extremely easily. If you hold a position for 30 seconds, and you need to rotate, use teleporter to do so, and set up new turrets. Why call it a static comp when Symmetra has the best burst mobility in the game?
Symmetra, Lucio, and Zenyattas all have anti-DPS ultimates, but work in different ways, and counteract different types of DPS ultimates. You cannot say they do not share the same sustainability.
Moira’s orb secondary combo only works every 10 seconds. Symmetra’s burst defensive damage is consistent.
Right, and you use teleporter to do that. Teleporter is the best for securing new spaces, especially enemy spaces. Turrets help with that. It’s why she works on Attack with her teleporter.
How does this cancel out the fact that she has the best burst mobility in the game? You’re telling me another hero can get her entire team to point A Hanamura faster than Symmetra? Teleporter can blow past chokes, making it the most powerful mobility in the game.
You keep running Symmetra back to chasing her teammates around like she’s Lucio. She plays differently than chasing her teammates around. She isn’t Lucio.
Yes, Lucio works with offensive/aggressive comps. Symmetra works best with defensive ones.
Why can’t she have medium damage? She has too low of DPS to be a DPS (like Zenyatta), and she has too high dps to be a main healer.
Gas lighting doesn’t help an argument in any way. But I see it makes you feel better, so go ahead. /s
2 of them can apply heal from range needing only los with a press of a button and that’s the heal applied often not needing go out of the way to reach them nor near danger to do so. Unlike the remaining one (sym) that needs to somehow use wasd to catch up to various heroes that are likely faster than her. idk why that’s such a hard concept to understand.
I also don’t see why you can’t blatantly see how much more consistent and how much more uptime the other “off healers” have with their healing and team sustain than your proposed sym because of that blatant lack of self agency for sym to apply her own sustain in your proposal.
ahh yes forcing your team to anchor themselves to you is absolutely not imposing any liability at all /s
this totally isn’t the reason bastion is so niche and unviable too. /s
because that’s definitely a healthy game design. “play this 1 strat only for her to have any meaningful value or lose”. great game design. definitely always have everyone on board with that. why haven’t you applied this sort of logic to solving world peace yet? /s
like if that’s your end goal then there’s literally 0 point to your proposal anyways because it fixes absolutely nothing and encourages more passive play rather than active play, which in OW, means overall worse play since you’re getting in less active value per unit of time.
practically speaking no because you as sym is forced positioning wise to be not operate alone to claim area you want on demand. not to mention realistically, you’ll often be using tp passively either to catch up to teammates or to taxi teammates elsewhere rather than actually zoning the enemy (e.g. putting tp to highground for say an ana or zen isn’t zoning the enemy since none of the enemy territory is claimed, you just gave them a shortcut to another part of your claimed area) because you as sym needs to position right next to your teammate(s) stuck outside of your effective range to damage or zone.
like have you never taken note of how frequently non-bunker comps reposition and how varied their points of travel are?
again, I’ve been saying this entire time, the other supports have actual reasonable tools to let them get allies in effective range to support. 10s per healing turret that get 1shotted and have limited range is far less capable of keeping up with team movement especially post shield nerfs. like no non-bunker team is staying in 1 spot for 30s post shield nerfs and because they’re shield breaks waaay before then and need to get hard cover. not to mention again, you don’t win various game modes by staying still for that long of a time let alone pass a choke.
but the main reason is the fact that your healing turrets can’t possibly keep up with mobility of other heroes as stated before. hence your force your allies to stay with turrets i.e. they’re playing static because they’re positioning is legit anchored to where your turrets are to get their value.
tp doesn’t make that formation less static. tp lets you move between only 2 static points on the map for its entire uptime. and unless you’re moving between those 2 points, you aren’t traveling great distances with tp. that’s not having high uptime mobility because you aren’t actually using it to travel between those points frequently with how much such healing turrets promote passive play.
you can by comparing counterability of each and how many threats each can block. quite obviously, sym wall has the most counterability.
you’re missing the point. you were saying how damage is equivalent to team sustain and I was giving you a clear counterexample of how it isn’t.
except your turrets now have to be put around teammates to provide enough team sustain to compete in 2-2-2 so that sail sinks with your proposal. and going “oh but you can taxi tp with your team onto point like now” is a poor argument because that means you’re not aiming to fix anything and it defeats the point of having a proposal to rework her anyways.
to reiterate: tp only lets you travel between 2, and only 2, static points on the map for its duration.
various mobility abilities for other heroes let them be more dynamic and flexible about where they go. e.g. reaper wraith and dva boost let them take turns i.e. you’d lose them if they travel away from both entrances of where you want to put down tp when you’re trying to chase them (esp when you have a 2s deployment time and theirs is more instant).
not to mention again, their mobility cd are shorter —> can use more often —> they outrun you.
she will be with tevees’s proposal. and likely with yours too given how she needs to keep turrets near allies rather than actively threatening enemies.
you’re proposing changes that further make her less viable to get her own dps uptime on a hero due to
forcing her turrets to be used passively (spending less time threatening enemies and more time idle to heal allies who play further away)
which consequently makes sym herself play more passive and spend more time outside of her own effective range to damage because she’d more easily get stomped on when not playing around turrets
despite the fact that she currently already struggles to get dps uptime because of how gutted her tp got with infinite tp and has worse dps/ttk numbers already … that’s not “medium” dps at all.
and again, this impact on her gameplay, makes her not sym.
just because you got receipts of your flawed circular reasoning thrown back at you showing how flawed your logic is, doesn’t make it gas lighting.
On average there are only so many vantage points on defense. You only need two static points to defend well on defense. On Attack, you’re mostly using teleporter to claim that space.
Teleporter is an effective tool for getting people in range of your support. Even people who are mobile can quickly get to the teleporter. It’s marked on your map. If people are irresponsible with getting in your support range, it’s their fault.
Which is why she is better in defensive comps, and less for aggressive ones which rely on consistent mobility, rather than burst.
It certainly does make the formation less static. You don’t always have to position right next to TP. It allows a way out when necessary, and often into a bunch of healing turrets. Then once you’re full, you can take the TP out again.
Heroes have a mix of passive and active play. It’s not an adequate point to argue how one is worst than the other. For example, when Tracer is low with no recall, or she is out of blinks, she has to retreat, and attack again when her cooldowns are done. Is this bad? No. Symmetra has both active and passive play, so why is it suddenly bad when Symmetra has passive play?
Right. Zenyatta cannot counter Widowmaker’s ultimate. Lucio cannot counter long-term ultimates like Bastion or Orisa’s ultimate. They each have different counters and can be countered in different situations. They offer the same sustain nonetheless.
I was definitely not talking about how damage is equal to team sustain. You were comparing Zenyatta’s damage to Symmetra’s damage. I have no idea why you brought sustain into that point.
Symmetra is useful if you don’t need two main healers. Lucio and Symmetra are the only two supports that offer mobility. Lucio with consistent mobility, and Symmetra with burst mobility. There are times where you really need Lucio’s consistent mobility, and times where you really need Symmetra’s burst mobility. They are different, and have different places in 2-2-2. You don’t always need excessive healing in 2-2-2.
Yes, but burst mobility is very important, and has a niche that consistent mobility like Lucio’s mobility cannot match. That is like saying flexible DPS is better than the burst DPS of Widowmaker, when that is not true. They are different and have different purposes. Stop comparing things that are completely different, in a situation where one excels, so you can call the other one useless. It’s a bad way to argue.
How will these changes suddenly turn her into Lucio? I’m confused about this point. Also, you’re not supposed to use turrets to actively threaten your enemies. You’re supposed to use them to make a space deadly for your enemies. Otherwise they’re just going to be destroyed.
Symmetra’s damage is secondary to her kit. The damage isn’t supposed to be accessible like Soldier, else we can just make another hero like Soldier. Her damage is meant to shut down a space when people get too close, or when they crowd around the choke, particular in a deathball formation.
The fact that you need to get out of her defensive niche to actually fill in the spot a normal DPS hero could fit, just shows that she fails as a DPS hero. The fact that you’re saying she already struggles with DPS uptime due to her TP getting gutted just further shows she doesn’t belong as a DPS hero.
Apparently you’re unhappy with how she plays now, because she’s a DPS hero that doesn’t do enough DPS.
We are still in agreement.
You’ve made an assumption on my argument that isn’t found in the words. Then you double-down on that assumption. You ignore what I’ve actually said, and put words into my mouth. If that isn’t some form of gaslighting, feel free to correct me.
looking at defense only is asking for the hero kit to fail when pretty much every other hero are being balanced for both attack and defense as this game simply isn’t just about defense.
it’s blatantly false that you only need 2 static points to defend on defense. esp when said static spots have a 1.5m radius (tp interaction radius). e.g. FULL HOLD HAVANA IS A GOOD HAVANA MAP - YouTube
full held whereby they held left of choke, right of choke, left of booth, right of booth/main, right building (near attacker 2nd spawn), literal last turn of point A near the cars, left under the highground building.
like I said in the other thread, with your proposed rework, either her team basically plays 2-3-1 or 2-2-1.5. arguing “oh but team pocket her and everything will be fine” isn’t a good argument esp when we have that issue right now.
so following that line of logic whereby “a hero’s kit can never be at fault here”, if someone picks bastion, and tanks don’t play a shield tank to cover for bastion and supports don’t pay more attention to bastion due to his static nature making him tank more damage than other heroes, it’s completely the tanks’ and supports’ fault right and theres’s absolutely 0 flaws in bastion’s kit right? /s
trying to put the blame on someone else doesn’t devoid the point that there’s something wrong with your proposed kit. if the hero in question doesn’t have self agency to do their job, they’re simply not going to be as viable as the rest of the heroes that can. esp in a game environment where teammates are rng chosen, players are awarded individually, most players solo queue and even in certain ranks, you can at most duo queue.
and it’s because of that reason, many supports are designed to be able to force feed teammates healing and utility rather than ask for consent all the time.
if you’re trying to use it as an escape as how your next 2 sentences heavily imply, yes you would
if that tracer is spending most of her match time in that state of no recall no blinks because the devs hard nerfs her core tools and then someone like you suggested a rework that highly incentivises her to do so, yes that’s a really big problem and really bad because she’s forced to have too much passive play. same logic applies to sym and any other hero.
and all of your examples can counter sym’s to as it all depends on positioning as to whether one can counter sym’s wall. i.e. widow and bastion ult can still lead to picks on sym’s team if they walk past it to land a shot on them.
Hoooooold up. let’s take a look at the history here:
yes you were definitely saying symmetra sustains allies with damage.
I’ve been saying for quite a while now, that your proposed sym provides even less team sustain then the off healers which makes her much less viable given how OW has been designed to have team sustain be largely from the supports.
did you like read that comparison and then immediately forget the context of the comparison despite there being a reminder of what the context was literally in the last line of what you quoted?
the context of the comparison was:
and how tp, as you leave it as-is, doesn’t compensate for that.
see context above
if that “deadly space” is not somewhere the enemy is likely going to reach any time soon regardless, then you’ve a “deadly space” that’s low value.
and your proposal encourages the latter low value “deadly spaces” much more:
that’s given how we legit have other “utility heroes” that have much more accessible damage avenues:
mei’s icicles have long effective range (legit around hanzo full charge arrow speed)
sombra’s weapon is hitscan + having clear defined ways in and out of her effective range
heck we’ve literally got other supports that have better accessibility to damage than her. this isn’t a “she belongs in the wrong role” problem, it’s blizz’s incompetent balancing.
zoning isn’t just defensive. there is such a thing as offensive zoning e.g. how the dive tanks work.
this is legit equivalent to saying something like following (if equivalent blatantly detrimental nerfs were done to them):
“the fact that tracer struggles with dps uptime due to her blinks and recall being guttered just further shows she doesn’t belong as a dps hero” or
“the fact that reaper struggles with dps uptime due to his wraith and shadow step being guttered just further shows he doesn’t belong as a dps hero” or
“the fact that rein struggles with tank uptime due to his shield being guttered just further shows he doesn’t belong as a tank hero” or
“the fact that widow struggles with dps uptime due to her sniper range being guttered just further shows she doesn’t belong as a dps hero”
or any other hero with their core uptime tool(s) receiving massive down time nerfs.
I do not agree with using that as a basis to rework her into a support.
please go ahead and explain where the assumption is in the following and what words did I put into your mouth…
There isn’t even a big crowd of people liking your posts. You’ve failed to get recognition from me, you’ve failed to be right, and you’ve failed to argue correctly. I only respond to you because your posts reek of desperation, and I thought by responding with no-bull replies, I would be able to get you to stop right away. But it isn’t your motive to be recognized for a good post. It’s not your motive to be recognized for being correct without wailing and screaming. It’s not your motive to argue correctly in a way that doesn’t involve kicking and screaming. You will continue to use words in such a heinous way, to be recognized as a dramatic person, to be recognized as someone who caused a stir, as someone who argued someone into nonsensical submission, and I’m not here to stick around for it.
I don’t agree sym 2.0 was defense based but extremely powerful in standard gameplay. Defense doesn’t mean the hero will be trash it just depends on the hero:
Since most objective maps can force the enemies into pushing defense hero’s do have a lot of potential. The hero just needs abilities that give her the advantage in those situations. Sym use to have extra health and turrets and lock on all which helped her a ton in her defense role
But maybe I was just too good with sym. But since she was an ability hero I do believe anyone could have gotten as much value with her as me if they put in the time
that’s beside the point because as you can see in all their arguments, they arguing from a defense only perspective a lot of the time completely disregarding the fat that at least half the game is attack
My point was that many situations can be forced into a defensive fight. Any objective can be turned into a defense position. And if you get creative enough you can also fight to defend key positions and cover
It was the reason sym could work as she could force the enemies to push her wether it be through a side objective like shield gen or using the actual objective. It really just depends on making a hero that can force defensive fights
when one proposes to simply change 1 of primary fire, orbs or turrets to heal instead of damage basically keeping all her current problems and adding more, she’s not forcing anything.
and if one can really “force the enemy to come to you” so often, would bastion be suffering as much as he has been for so long?
I don’t get this part what are you talking about. Sym 2.0 could just keep shield gen and point alive is she wanted to be completely defensive. The enemies do have to take point
Bastions kit is just really really bad even when he forces the enemy to push him. Having no mobility in a game with zero movement acceleration and also having a massive hitbox is suicide.
That’s not reliant on defensive hero’s just being bad they are harder to play for sure as you need to be more considerate about your own hero’s limitations. But sym 2.0 was a prime example of how strong a defensive hero could be certain maps she completely dominated so much so that her pickrate and winrate was decent
backtrack the arguments with the other person to get the context.
and he’s got the high hitscan rapid fire dps that gets even higher the closer you get (less missing).
the point is, if hero can only just be “fine” or “balanced” in defense only, we wouldn’t have seen the poor performance on various highly defense oriented heroes and we wouldn’t have seen how snipers + other ranged hitscans need to take aggressive angles and flank to get value rather than “sit and wait for them to come to you”.
this is a game where many heroes have really high mobility, many heroes have long effective ranges, objectives that move, sources of recovery mainly come from the team supports (other players) and objectives where there aren’t necessarily much natural cover. “sit and wait for them to come to you” in this game, esp in context of a hero with short effective range and nowhere near the sustain to compensate for those low traits, often means to get left behind and be a liability for the team to compensate for, and by definition, will struggle to get uptime (opportunities for value) and value itself.
Yeah defensive hero’s hasn’t been blizzards specificalty as they are typically hard to balance. But there have been some really solid ones
Mei is defensive in nature and has had plenty of time when she was a dominant character.
Sigma and Orissa the king and queen of double shield also show how insane defense based hero’s can be
Sym 2.0 was a prime example on a support
Just letting you know that defense can be insane in this game. But you can also find garbage ones like bastion.
Defensive low mobility hero’s do have a strong place in this game you just have to look around. They just can very easily exploit the ground the enemy gives up for free.
she doesn’t “sit and wait for enemies to go to her” esp given the range of her wall and range of her secondary (which tbh, is actually her primary fire given it’s her staple weapon fire).
neither of them nor even the other tanks are “sit and wait for enemies to go to them”. at best you’d argue that on defense mode but that’s because on defense, they don’t have much incentive to take initiative to push.
she was one of the very few “sit and wait for enemies” heroes and that’s due to her lack of tools for her to not just effectively “sit and wait” most of the match time, and she turned out really polarising, unhealthy narrow niche, and not doing very well.
there’s a difference to be made between “defense oriented” vs “lacking tools to function reasonably in the environment of the game” and “unreasonably expecting a hero to have inherently massive down time in design (i.e. low opportunities for value) to be fine” i.e. “sitting and waiting for enemies to go to them”
many low mobility heroes get compensated in range (e.g. zen, ana, widow, etc.) or sustain (rein, zarya, sigma) or a combination of both (moira, mei, torb, etc.) so that they can reasonably achieve a decent amount of uptime in a solo queue setting.
sustain, effective range, burst and mobility are the parameters to every hero and power needs to be distributed amongst them.
I mean she was originally in the defense class for a reason and just looking at her abilities shows their defensive potential. She has the ability to split the enemy team that’s an offensive use of a wall.
I was more focusing on the lack of mobility tools. But as tanks job is to make space and they do that through their presence and shield.
She was a bit more promising than the current iteration. Larger player-base much stronger niche and in general more playtime. Especially for the solo queue setting as she was a lot less team reliant
But the key thing sitting and waiting is very boring that’s why her old kit didn’t have downtime the 6 turrets pierce and ult constantly kept the character on the move. That’s just harder to make on a defensive hero but time optimization went very well with sym
Yeah that’s true lacking tools to function “bastion” and down time should be avoided those don’t make a good defensive hero.
Having functioning tools to counter offensive abilities is what makes a really good defensive hero syms old barrier or sigmas current one are very good at this.
I typically view the sustain to be defensive. As it’s just having tools that let you live longer that’s just defense.
Having high uptime is needed and not mutually exclusive to my view of a defensive hero.
But I see it makes you feel better, so go ahead. /s
given how we legit have other “utility heroes” that have much more accessible damage avenues:
replies, I would be able to get you to stop right away. But it isn’t your motive to be recognized for a good post. It’s not your motive to be recognized for being correct without wailing and screaming. It’s not your motive to argue correctly in a way that doesn’t involve kicking and screaming. You will continue to use words in such a heinous way, to be recognized as a dramatic person, to be recognized as someone who caused a stir, as someone who argued someone into nonsensical submission, and I’m not here to stick around for it.