Did we learn nothing from Reaper?

General Discussion
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What for real? This is so self-evident I’m surprised I even need to explain it. Low elo players are bad at the game - they lack each of the main components necessary. Game sense, composition, mechanical skill, situational awareness, hero pool, you name it they lack it. Therefore, balancing for bad players makes absolutely zero sense - these players don’t understand the game. It’s also impossible to balance for the top and the bottom, that’s a pipe dream.

Easiest example is vanilla Symmetra. Low elos considered Symmetra to be absurdly OP, even though anyone that’s actually remotely decent knew Symmetra is an absolute F-tier, useless hero. It’s just low elo players can’t aim to save their lives. If we balance for low elo, we are supposed to nerf the worst hero in the game just because of their inability to play properly.

It’s like making a test easier just because some students don’t want to learn and got an F.

I mean this is such a simple concept that it kind of baffles me I have to even explain it.

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thanks, though i meant on the new mcree buff

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So what?

Not all players are of equal competence and generally they are grouped to play with similar skill level.

There is no “therefore” here, I asked why and you stated the obvious that less skilled players are less skilled.

No, screwing over your customers makes absolutely zero sense.

This is like a car company saying they don’t care about anyone except the F1 Race Car drivers and scoff at ordinary drivers who don’t have the amazing driving skills of F1 Race car drivers.

Why? Why is it impossible?

Okay, maybe she was F-tier, but why would that be impossible to balance?

No why would you be supposed to “nerf” her?

The problem was her lock on was essentially impossible to break if she stayed within range so you could cheese through it just spamming movement with zero regard to your own tracking skill. This was really annoying.

And how is this a problem for you?

You clearly hate low skilled players, how is them getting something a problem for you?

It isn’t.

It’s pure sadism. You think players should suffer for having aim below a certain standard, conveniently a standard that doesn’t apply to you.

And they didn’t nerf symm, overall Symm 3.0 is a buff it’s just she can’t cheese her way in fights with squishies by jumping around to a ridiculous extent, more than she could even keep tracking a target without such a strong lock-on.

You said it was impossible… but the best example you could give totally contradicts your point.

I think I get it, you haven’t really explained yourself so I have to read between the lines: the simple concept is sheer selfishness and elitism.

You think because a player lacks skill they deserve to have a bad time, that is their just punishment and they should never have bought Overwatch.

And that is why you should never be trusted in any decision making capacity in any business.

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The problem here is that the community whines about anything and Blizzard fault is listening to the community and the streamers in the first place!

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As far as I can tell, his right click is being untouched.

It’s his left-click that is getting a change, from 0.5 sec fire delay between each shot to 0.4sec fire delay between each shot.

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Check the patchnotes here:

And no FTH wasn’t touched this patch.
His primary fire got a speed buff.

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k thx

Summary

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:joy: So how are you going to talk about balance and propose balance changes if you don’t have any clue or idea about the topic you are talking about or understand fundamental principles? LMAO.

Yeah, because it’s literally that obvious. It’s self evident and logical. You can’t balance around the worst players because they have absolutely zero idea what they are talking about.

LMAO. You are not screwing over your customer base, hahaha. It’s not Blizzard’s fault some people are bad at the game, lel.

What a silly analogy. Do regular people drive F1 race cars? That’s literally it. Regular people have zero clue about race cars.

Because balance changes would be contradicting one another or be mutually exclusive.

Because according to low elo players, she was OP and according to anyone else she was F-tier trash hero.

Because according to low elo players, she is OP.

LMAO, literally zero logic and pure emotive language. It isn’t a problem to me because I can actually aim, people can aim. That’s why it was never OP because Symmetra was countered by 99% of the roster.

No, it doesn’t. Because now Symmetra is trash more less equally everywhere instead of just in the top. :smiley: She is literally still a throw-pick useless hero except she is now played by even less people and has even less win-rate. She is still not good anywhere decent but now she is also bad at low elo too :smiley:

It’s called logic.

LMAO. No, that’s not what I’m saying at all, nice try twisting my words with zero coherence and purely emotive virtue signalling.

Good thing I actually run a business. Balance / = business. Have zero relation. Reaper is literally the best example:

People here crying he is OP when he is not and can be countered easy. Blizzard caved in for low elo people and nerfed him even though he was not amazing anywhere decent. So same thing - instead of him being bad at the top, he is now bad everywhere. :smiley:

Balancing for the bottom and top is impossible, those are mutually exclusive. Nice try though.

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What do I not know about this topic?

All I have done is ask you for evidence and found your evidence lacking.

Your pet theories of balance =/= the fundamental principles.

That is not logic, that is magic.

So what? It’s not in dispute that less skilled players are less skilled.

You’re acting like that proves your pet theory when it doesn’t.

That does not follow.

When you “balance around” them you don’t just give them what they say they want.

Wait… do you think “balance around” means… just cave in to the mob and give into the loud minority clamouring for certain things? Because that’s not how balancing works at ANY level of the game.

You deal objectively with how play is.

Yes it is screwing them over.

You’re just acting like you can only “screw over” those who you think don’t deserve it and you you think they deserve if because of your elitist attitude.

Do regular people perform in competitions streamed to millions of people?

Why? Why would they be contradicting each other or be mutually exclusive?

Why does that mean she would be impossible to balance?

You’re not actually giving any logical reasons for any of this. You’re not giving any reason why she couldn’t be changed to a form that made her better in higher ranks and worse in lower ranks.

As was in fact done with Symmetra.

There’s absolutely zero emotive language. Sadism and elitism can be objectively noted.

Exactly my point… it’s not a problem for you… yet you contradict yourself saying it can’t be done as if it would be a problem for you.

It is a fact that that is not a universally held opinion.

How is it so logical?

No, I think I perfectly summarised your selfish illogical approach.

I don’t think you should and I think whatever business you run would run better without you in any position of authority.

This is just nonsense, Reaper has received nothing but buffs. Except that brief period where his lifesteal was 50% before going down to 40%. Obviously net buffs overall.

Why? Tell me why it would be impossible?

You can’t just state the obvious on irrelevant points, make baseless declarations and then self-declare yourself to be logical.

Man, it’s weird how much you’re compeltely incapable of handling the little three letter word “why”.

You have never said why.

I don’t think you can say why because there is no reason why. No logical reason at least. Your vindictive assumption is not logic.

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LMAO.

Low elo players don’t understand fundamental principles of this game. What precisely is magic about that statement?

So how do you expect people with zero competency to be able to make legitimate criticisms and propose balance changes for a system they don’t understand. It’s like a freshly enrolled economy student proposing a bill to change fundamentally the financial system when they have no clue what they are talking about. Nothing magical, common sense :smiley:

You don’t balance around bad players, period. It’s utter chaos and a complete mess of a jungle with people having no clue what they are doing. Literally gives you zero indication of balance.

How? Should Blizzard hire personal tutors to teach people how to be good? LMAO.

Well, I don’t know because recently Reaper was nerfed since apparently low elo players can’t deal with the easiest hero to deal with in the game? :smiley: Making him yet a gain a throw pick anywhere decent. Reaper needed to be buffed, not nerfed again. But they caved in to people who want the game to be even further casualized.

I’m not saying she is impossible to balance. I’m saying she is impossible to balance when catering to both the complete bottom end of the spectrum and the top. There’s a pretty big freaking difference :smiley:

Straw-man 101 - take words or arguments out of context or twist them to where they don’t resemble the original.

Evidently not because Symmetra is now worse in lower ranks and worse in higher ranks. She has even worse pick-rate than before (and before it was abysmal) and her win-rate is also worse than before. She is objectively worse than before, used by less people and with a lesser win-rate and she is the worst DPS in the game bar none. By all accounts a failure. This is backed up by significant amount of data.

Do you even understand what I’m saying? Fundamentally, I can play any hero in this game so balancing changes matter little to me personally. I can always swap to another hero that is currently on the top of the meta. I’m arguing from a fundamental principle and logical, common sense. To me personally, it doesn’t matter if a hero is nerfed or not - I can play them all competitively and all my fundamental skills are solid. That still doesn’t change the fact that the game should be balanced for the top.

Where’s the evidence of that? All evidence point to the contrary, pick-rate, win-rate, statistics, usage.

Already explained.

LMAO. I don’t think you are any credible source or authority or have any experience to gauge that :smiley:

And nerfed him back - taking away something is called a nerf. Look it up.

I’ve already explained why and even gave you two examples. :smiley: The fact that you don’t understand it is not my problem at all.

Literally zero substance post with emotive language - muh sadism and oppression .:smiley:

I’m not preaching discovery of the hot water - this is literally a concept done for the last 20+ years in the entire FPS genre. :smiley:

It’s like having a class of students and giving them an easier test because some of them can’t be bothered to study.

Where’s the evidence for anything you say?

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Where is your evidence they don’t understand the fundamental principles of the game?

Why do you get to decide what the fundamental principles of the game are?

I don’t.

No. No period. No full stop. No ellipses. No exclamation mark.

You make claim, you follow it with proof.

Again, you are acting as if “balance around” means do what lower skilled players say rather than intelligently taking into account how they actually play or are capable of playing the game.

No, you grow up and be a competent game designer and designs the game in a way that works for a typical range of skills.

Reaper was not nerfed recently.

But that is what was done.

No, you misinterpreted what I meant.

Where is the evidence of this?

No, her pickrate is almost unchanged, it was about 0.9% before her big rework and it’s currently hovering around 0.9%. Win rate is also similarly under no significant change.

The main goal was achieved, she wasn’t too good in lower ranks but rose in viability in upper ranks, a net neutral change by balancing around both high and low ranks. Could she do with some buffs of the right sort, sure. And they may very well come.

What data? How does that data show that?

What common sense?

What logic?

What fundamental principle?

Your snap judgement that you’ve never justified is none of those things.

That is not a fact.

How does pick rate or win rate refute the factual existence of Symm mains on these forums who undeniably enjoy her current state and vociferously defend her. That proves it’s not universal.

If that’s all you’re referring to that’s irrelevant.

Reaper’s lifesteal still DOUBLED from 20% lifesteal to 40% lifesteal.

Just like if my rent went up from $200 to $500 then down to $400, my landlord can’t claim “I reduced your rent by $100 so you have no reason to complain”.

Where? When? Who established this? Where was this recognised? What are you even talking about?

No it’s like a prosecutor accusing an innocent man of a crime and when his lawyer asks for any proof of his client’s guilt he can’t present any proof at all to the court except to say “it’s logical” and “it’s common sense” and “oh come on it’s obvious he did it, everyone thinks he’s guilty!”

Where is the evidence for my questions to ask for your evidence?

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LMAO. The evidence is in the fact that they are low elo players :smiley: This is becoming a debate whether gravity exists or not :smiley:

You do realize that - mechanical skill, situational awareness, positioning etc. are fundamental principles in every FPS game since the inception of the genre roughly 20+ years ago.

There you go.

And I provided the proof on multiple occasions.

And again, you can’t balance around that because it’s literally not a viable source of information because these people don’t play the characters properly. Nor is it possible to balance that and at the same time balance for the top.

Which is what we have currently? LMAO :smiley:

Yes, he was. Might want to check those patch notes.

And it evidently failed.

LMAO. 10% drop in win-rate is not a significant change.

The main goal was to increase popularity and make her more mainstream. Instead her pickrate which was abysmal already dropped and her win-rate dropped as well dramatically. Stop making stuff up man :smiley: That isn’t an opinion, that’s a fact. Symmetra is absolutely not viable in upper ranks and if you claim that with a straight face you know nothing about this game.

LMAO. You are straight up making stuff up. Are you not seeing the constant Sym threads asking for fixing Sym?

LMAO. You live in some alternative reality. I provided you with plenty of evidence and then some.

Enjoy the emotive language but it’s fundamentally useless. Refusing to provide any evidence for the stuff you say just shows how little you understand this topic.

At any rate, debating with you is pointless. The fact that you claim Sym is viable at the top ranks literally tells you me you understand nothing about the current state of the game or balance.

Ta!

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I’m getting bored of your sloppy reasoning.

Just because they’re unable to execute them well doesn’t mean they don’t understand the fundamental principles of the game.

Yeah, and the emperor has some fantastic clothes. I wonder if you’ll get that reference.

Why do you get to decide what is “proper”?

Why?

You just said that was impossible.

It hasn’t dropped 10%.

Neither 10% of the win percentage or an absolute drop in percentage win rateb y 10%.

But you’re making all of that up.

Where did I say she was “viable”?

How does that prove that Symm mains don’t exist?

How does even symm mains generally supporting those threads prove that they don’t generally like her but just think she needs a little more.

Impassively asking you for proof and reason isn’t emotive language. You may be having an emotional response but that’s 100% on you.

I agree, you don’t have the evidence to back up your claim and the little evidence that is not in dispute you cannot apply any reason or logic as to why that backs up your claims.

The fact is I never said Symm is viable in the top ranks.

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Just stop arguing…

Ravenna is just a skill-elitist who doesn’t give anything about lower ranks and only screams “Muh skill”

The entire argument has been him saying, because they are lower ranks and for the rest only ego statements about his rank or his job.

Fact is, you balance from the top and see how the game is played. BUT you always keep in mind how this affects the lower ranks, because you can’t break their game. They are the ones that are keeping the game alive, plat and below is almost 85% of the playerbase. If they get screwed, Overwatch dies.

Thank god Blizzard understands that and people like Ravenna have nothing to say in balance decisions

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Skill elitist :smiley: What does that even mean? :smiley: I take no qualms about being good. I put skill and time to get to where I am.

I’m a her if that’s not painfully obvious with a name like that. Also I’m not the one who brought up my job :smiley:

Except nobody low elo is getting screwed LMAO :smiley: Nobody is oppressing you, least of all Blizzard. It’s not Blizzard’s fault you are not good or you don’t want to improve. Should they hire you a personal tutor? :smiley:

Blizzard is balancing for the top 99% of the time so I got no clue what you are thanking for when the devs have the same idea as me (technically we all have the same idea cause it’s the logical idea to balance for the top).

You don’t balance around bad players just like you don’t make a test easier cause some students don’t want to study.

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Reaper is close to a throw pick, primarily relying on his enemies to play poorly in order to be effective. Name any “close-ranged” hero and they probably are better than Reaper in his effective range.

Hog? Combo deletes Reaper. Will just TaB and flee to his team if the hook is successfully wraith dodged. Hog can kill Reaper without any abilities due to his longer range secondary fire. (Seriously, Hog gets a choked shotgun fire in a SCRAP gun but Reaper can’t have a choked SHOTGUN mode?) Hook has a stun and will stop Death Blossom. He can fully face tank a blossom without a TaB.

Mei? Pretty much a counter to Reaper. Her primary fire will force Reaper to wraith out or be frozen, which means he must reset back to his team. Her wall will prevent his escape or engagement of her team, and can effectively block Death Blossom. She can ice block if Reaper does get the drop on her, which also saves her from a Blossom.

McCree? Flash and fan is a dead Reaper. His primary fire will kill Reaper dead long before he gets in range. Flash-bang stuns and will stop a Death Blossom. Can maintain his range with his Roll and/or use its free reload to out DPS Reaper.

Torb? Turret will mercilessly whittle at Reaper’s health, and Torb’s Overload makes him a hard target and he can kill Reaper outright with the damage+health+fire rate buff it gives or use it to effectively flee from Reaper back to his turret. He dramatically out-ranges Reaper with a zero-falloff primary fire and has a shotgun mode if Reaper closes in.

Tracer? Her mobility is vastly superior to Reaper’s. Her high damage primary and longer fall-off allow her to out-range Reaper. If he does get the drop on her, the slim hitbox will likely cause Reaper’s huge spread to work against him. She’ll recall, blink, and kill Reaper at her leisure or retreat to a health-pack as needed.

He’s a joke, and he will always be. Every other hero that you could compare Reaper to either has superior range, utility, or mobility… sometimes all three. Reaper is the prince of mediocrity. Mediocre mobility, lousy range, zero utility.

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Takes her 1.5 sec to freeze Reaper at an absolute minimum, long enough for Reaper to get off at least 3 shots, maybe 4 shots. That’s 420-560 damage.

Even if it’s only 3 shots because Mei shot first, reaper needs to only land about 55% hit rate to frag Mei, less if any of those pellets are headshot. And reaper can wriath when he’s getting close to being frozen then decide to run away or immediately leave wraith with the freeze being cancelled.

Now sure Mei can ice-block but Reaper will just be waiting for her and there’s a good chance more enemies will have turned up.

I don’t think Mei is very good fighting against a Reaper… however she is good at stealing his job.

She’s really good at getting in there and screwing with tanks because she doesn’t have to kill the tank, no matter how much health they have, it doesn’t matter how much they are healed, they’re frozen in 1.5 seconds the same as low HP heroes. And that’s a death sentence in a team.

mei’s ability to stall out in a forward position with immunity and healing herself can really help. Unlike Reaper wraithing away, you can’t leave pursue the enemy and leave mei behind you. Yet waiting on her and she’ll just wall her way to victory.

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That doesn’t work in reality.

His guns are terrible. The fact that they won’t reduce his insane spread and fall-off will ALWAYS hamstring Reaper. The removal of the “all-or-nothing” crit bug was effectively a nerf for Reaper. It made his attacks more consistent… unfortunately due to the spread, that means more consistently bad. You could one shot a squishy before the bug fix, now not so much.

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surprised pikachu meme

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Ashe is better and will still be better than Mccree in every way except for stunning…