Is it any more arbitrary than those that only look at the OWL ? No.
yes.
20 characters…
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OWL players play hours per day, with the same teammates, always use comms, always play on LAN, have coaches, analysts, are paid to win.
This is unrealistic for the ladder. OWL and ladder are two very different games.
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you could say the same for top 500 ladder vs low diamond, right?
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That’s almost only a skill difference. OWL vs ladder has a lot of external factors that differentiate them.
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no…no it isnt lmfao!
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If you’re just gonna answer yes or no and provide no counter argument at all, don’t bother responding.
i need to explain to you that top 500 players are scrimming 8+ hours a day, use comms, dont have the leavers/throwers/trolls in low diamond, have better equipment, etc? its not even remotely the same game experience
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Lol, they’re not. Scrimming is what pros do when they play against other teams or their second unit between matches. Playing Comp isn’t scrimming.
Communication is a skill.
Eh questionable. They’re a bit more rare, but they still happen.
Irrelevant.
Anyway, none of this really matters, we don’t have T500 stats, only GM.
my point is that T500 is full of semi professional players who scrim 8+ hours in addition to playing ladder. low diamond is kids getting off from school. again, not the same game experience in terms of game sense, strategies, teamwork, communication, meta understanding, etc. You trying to boil it down to a simple “skill difference” is just more arbitrary nonsense.
more arbitrary nonsense. a bit? LMFAO
YOU included always using comms in your reason why pro play cant be used for balancing.
how so? you brought up external factors like playing on LAN. you think on average diamond players are investing the same into their equipment as T500? and you think that has no effect on the level of play? lmfao
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Even if that is true, Dia to T500 is “the best of the best” + “the best of the rest.”
You claim they don’t have throwers/leavers/trolls without any element to back that up.
You are just as arbitrary as I am here.
There’s a difference between the comms pros use and what ladder uses. Ladder has lag, salty/toxic people (yes, even in T500), and players don’t know each other to the point they’re friends IRL. On some servers there’s also the whole language barrier issue.
You can’t compare ladder comms and OWL comms. OWL players have key-words for example.
Getting a 240Hz screen or a gamer chair isn’t magically gonna make you better. This has a very minor effect on the game.
Latency, on the other hand, has effects on the way “Favor the shooter” reacts, and Player1<->Server<->Player2 communication.
This is a team game, balancing around soloq makes no sense.
So she should need 3+ counters to push her out of the meta?
I focus on full stacks vs full stacks from diamond+, but diamond+ isn’t the typical player experience.
Showing why we can’t let high gold/low plat dominate balance decisions. Dumb things happen like picking Dva when she shouldn’t be picked.
Yes it was. No compensation was needed.
I honestly disagree with this, the Dvaless part of season 4 was perfectly fine, as did the stage 3 finals. 2/2/2 is obviously going to change this, but it’s not like I agree with 2/2/2.
I mean it’s not hard to keep it up, as pointless as it is.
I just checked overbuff, I’m not sure what they’re getting it from since it doesn’t match any of my actual profile stats even with a fresh update.
It was a lot higher than that.
Because main tanks brawling in a goats context isn’t typical gameplay.
Genji is the one that needs a damage buff. Buffing Dva doesn’t make dive viable, it makes solo Dva rushes viable and that’s why she was nerfed in the first place.
His damage output was unchanged.
It raised the bar past them despite their own buffs. Neither gets things killed reliably enough, at least right now.
Yeah, she did.
Not with that level of mobility. She has no reason to excessively expose her hitbox, she’s not Hammond.
He was nerfed. Certainly looks pretty balanced atm.
I do think we may be able to squeeze in another personal defensive ability if we nerf DM more.
You don’t see comps being limited from individual stats. If you’re building comps around a win condition blocked by matrix, you have to ensure that other teammates can get it out of the way and that restricts your ability to pick for other threats.
I play soldier. Even if you delete much of his competition he’s still not good. Too many barriers everywhere.
You don’t need to. The game is balanced around that level of team level strategic depth.
So, an anomaly. And what happened to having alternatives? Are they gonna be fake offtanks too?
There have been pro games where 14 ults were used and no one died. That’s a lot of damage.
You were the one who brought up Tracer accuracy.
You’re not outstrafing Dva and missiles are a thing, and 2s is substantial. Dva wouldn’t be picked at all if it wasn’t.
Using a single character to stop another meta character by itself doesn’t push them out of the meta. It makes it worth running both.
And taking a step back, the stupid part isn’t nerfing Dva before a counter arrives, it’s making a counter and expecting it to fix things and not break literally everything else in the process like what actually happened.
Additionally, we do have an interview from the devs saying that they feared another OG tank meta with the introduction of Brig, i.e. the kind we actually saw with dva in goats. Nerfing Dva made perfect sense.
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what does this even mean? could you explain it a little clearer? in no way does it explain your inclusion of diamond as anything but arbitrary.
cuz like, common sense? lmfao
not doubting that there are occasional trolls/leavers in high GM, but they run rampant in low diamond.
and theres huge differences between comms at 4400 and 3000. massive differences. you cant compare them.
exactly, and its a safe wager there are more people with shoddy internet in low diamond than T500.
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Just because people soloQ doesn’t mean they can’t play as a team. Sure it’s not as great as what pros do, but even with full stacks it won’t be half as good as what pros do.
Most heroes do. Widow had 5 and she was still highly picked. And she got a slap on the wrist nerf.
Full stack vs full stack isn’t typical player experience.
Again we can go all night like that. No, it wasn’t needed. None of the last 6 nerfs she got were.
And the D.Va-full S6 to S9 was fine, but noooo, D.Va needed nerfs. To do what ? Oh yeah, ensure the dominance of 2 tanks instead of having all 6 viable. Switch which DPS were viable. Yeah, that was totally needed.
I wouldn’t call 2 imbalanced comp going head to head “fine.”
The only high thing is whoever took the decision to nerf D.Va.
In GM the last 6 months, Rein is only 300 damage below D.Va, while he ignores barriers. They were not playing GOATS.
Genji that is perfectly viable in the current meta ? Need a buff ? You’re joking.
His ability to close gaps was. So instead of dying before reaching the enemy, he could reach them and damage them.
The trash tier feels so fine amirite.
Except when she has to dive, which she would if she could.
Hammond has a smaller hitbox, more mobility and can hide his critbox forever.
Very minor nerf, and compensated.
What happened to the whole “survivability powercreep” ?
As much as you pick to counter barriers.
He’s better than he was in S3 when the game was nicknamed Barrier-watch. And DM got nerfed to the ground since, while barriers just melt from all the damage in the game.
It isn’t though, it’s balanced around “muh oppressive.”
I’m craving for actual off-tanks to be added. We got ZERO, even fake off-tanks added in 3 years.
Then pellets that deal 0.6 damage each won’t do much good.
We’re comparing accuracy, not heroes. They both have a big spread on their guns and play in the face of enemy so it makes sense.
Comparing heroes would have been: “Tracer is picked more than D.Va in Diamond+, she’s getting buffed and D.Va isn’t.”
HAHAHAHAHA. D.Va can’t strafe. If she strafes and you don’t compensate, you’ll still hit her critbox.
And can be avoided.
But then when it’s DM’s cooldown, it becomes nothing.
Strangely this reasoning is only mentioned when talking about D.Va.
Brig was made to counter Tracer, and Dive in general. Was she played alongside Tracer ? No.
GOATS wasn’t a “Tank meta” but a support meta. It’s an evolution of Triple Support which had Rein/Zarya as the tanks, and Widow/Hanzo as the sole DPS. Then they realized having a third tank solved the issue of the DPS dying during rotation.
I can’t be clearer. Diamond to T500 has the best players in overall skill, specific skills, and hero mastery.
“Common sense” in this case is “alleged certainty” which is a fallacy.
Much less than between ladder and OWL.
There are people with shoddy internet even in Masters, maybe even GM. It’s part of ladder play, and something that doesn’t exist in the OWL.
lol wutface? says who? you? since when is diamond the best players in the world? its 100% arbitrary and youve given zero clear explanation as to why solo q diamond should be included in hero balance. so yes, please be clearer.
im sorry they dont have troll stats lmfao. what rank are you? can you comment on the state of leavers/trolls/people who dont comm/throwers/etc in your rank? you saying there are “a bit less” in T500 compared to low diamond might be the grossest underestimation ive seen on these forums lol
thats like, your opinion man. and even if it were true, doesnt negate my point whatsoever.
the fact that you phrased it like that proves im right. you and i both know players invest way more into their connection and set up in t500 than low diamond. its not even close to an equal comparison.
Look, I’m not gonna bother discussing something that is trivial and completely off-topic any further.
If you want to stay in your bubble that only the OWL matters, or that only GM, where D.Va is bad anyway, matters, you do you.
This whole talk about one thing being “arbitrary” is completely pointless.
you sure did spend a lot of time on something trivial and off topic lmfao.
if you want to continue thinking diamond solo q is the best of the best and should be included in balance decisions go ahead. its 100% arbitrary and makes zero sense, but go off
You wanted explanations, I tried to explain, all you did was troll. Now get off.
Your “explanation” consisted of you repeating “diamond is the best of the best” and saying there aren’t way more trolls in diamond than t500 lmfao.
You’re the troll, but go off.
Of course, but it’s still the ideal player experience given the design of the game.
We don’t know that it was just a slap due to 2/2/2 on the horizon. I also don’t have a strong opinion as to if Widow actually needs a nerf or not because I see Genji as the problem given that the dive meta ended with Winston/Dva/Tracer/Widow/Zen/Mercy as the dominant comp.
It should be. That’s how the game was designed and nothing else compares once you’ve tried it.
Sure.
Brig hit S10. We went from 2 tanks to another 2 tanks, to 3, back to 2. Tanks hard pushing each other out of metas with little changes to them has always been a problem, except in S4.
I’d say that the viability of both comps was a sign that the game was approaching fine. The more viable “imbalanced comps” there are the better. This is the level of freedom and creativity the game was originally supposed to have, but complaining about 2/2/2 is for another thread.
No wonder it took so long.
You sure? Alternatively they were only picking him where brawling actually worked outside goats, but we need map specific stats for that.
Winston/Dva/Tracer/Genji jumping a thing doesn’t kill it often enough and in the initial jump, Genji is the most lacking. 76, Junk, DF, and Widow have all replaced him. Widow in particular is concerning because the same comp with Genji should counter it hard, and doesn’t.
So it increased his survivability.
She hasn’t been F tier since cooldown DM was replaced.
She’s not a main tank. She shouldn’t be going in first most of the time.
And he’s somehow balanced again.
The latest patch changes everything, but previously barriers could be flanked and booped in the case of Rein. And you can play for shieldbreak. You can’t play for DM break.
Since then we’ve got Orisa and survivability creep across the board, but no longer has Hog 1.0 to break barriers for him.
Too many characters still exist for that to be the case.
People are still undecided on Sigma. But yeah, we do need more tanks.
But you’ll have plenty of time to land them.
Not always. Tracer can’t charge straight in but has better things to do than sit at standoff distances, so she usually harrasses and slightly less than medium range. Dva usually plays at somewhat far range to point blank. Their accuracy reflects their difference in usage.
But Dva can turn and DM occupies a significant amount of volumetric space.
Not every character has that level of mobility.
No, the cooldown is supposed to be substantial. It’s a nerf, not a cosmetic change.
We saw Winston goats, Sombra goats, DF goats, triple dive tank goats, etc. Meanwhile rally made everyone a Tracer counter.
No it’s an evolution of quad tank, with Brig playing effectively as a third offtank. It plays similarly, except that it worked better. Quad tank was already rearing up to be a potential dive competitor in EU before Brig hit.
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