I think Hammond is fine where he is. He’s probably the best balanced tank we have right now. At least imo. But Winston and D.Va do need some attention. We’re really only in this meta because all the other tanks are just bad. We first got into bunker because the only main tanks that weren’t hit that bad were Hammond and Orisa, and Orisa doesn’t have hard counters like Hammond does. So the tank combo was Orisa/Hog for Halt+Hook. Then when Sigma got introduced, we got into double barrier because he has some benefits of a main tank but also has some benefits of an off tank. So Hog got phased out of meta.
But if we buff some of the other tanks up some, then I think we’ll see some competition to both Orisa and this meta. Honestly, I feel Rein/Sigma would be a better tank combo than Orisa/Sigma, but because of how nerfed most of the tanks got because of 3/3, Orisa is just better by default.
I want to see Orisa get dove hard like how she used to be. There should be a solution to the staticness but like you said, they were phased out. Mei is the only reason I mentioned hammond; this thread is for DVA and monkey
Yeah! Like, I see a lot of people call for nerfs to Orisa, but I don’t think this meta is necessarily her fault. She’s helped enable it, but she didn’t cause the meta so I don’t think nerfing her will solve the problem.
Because like you said, the solution to her use to be to dive on her. Orisa comps use to fall short once you got past her shield. The solution use to be “Don’t shoot the shield; just move past/around it.” But because of buffs and nerfs to heroes around them, that’s not as viable. You can certainly try it, but the heroes that could rush the bunker or boop her away from her bunker, the meta now has answers for.
If you try to dive the bunker with Winston, you get a Reaper. If they try to dive it with a Hammond, you got Mei. And D.Va right now is just…D.Va. People have already talked about her before so I won’t get into it.
And the heroes that can answer to Winston and Hammond didn’t use to be good which is why they weren’t viable answers before.
I don’t think they should just be better against their counters, but right now I feel like dive has too many answers. It needed answers back when it was meta, but now it has too many (partly because the answers we have to dive now like Reaper and Mei were bad during dive’s heyday).
The power creep is a roster wide problem. Tanks alone are not the issue.
That is called power creep.
Yes they are. He’s getting nerfed for a reason.
Widow got buffed quite significantly a while back when she got her hookshot buff. It was just hard to notice because it was so much easier to negate her value with more tanks and healing.
Not enough for D.va at all.
So not 90% of the way at all.
I’d even argue she doesn’t need a critbox reduction as much as she needs her DM length nerf reverted, 300H/300A, and some bonus damage to shields by missiles.
Also that Winston buff is pointless, it wouldn’t do much of anything to help him, it would just be buffing him just to buff him. Whether they buff, nerf, or change, a hero, the changes need to make sense and actually do something to really help the hero - not just thrown out there to appease ppl but not really change much.
I’m just very afraid of overbuffing D.Va. I don’t want to see her go through another round of nerfs. Those changes you mention would probably put her back into a realm where she gets the nerf hammer again. Though, I do agree with you the DM nerf length change was completely unnecessary. It would be nice if it was reverted.
I also think the critbox change would do more for her survivability than the 300/300 change.
I understand not wanting to over-buff her. As a d.va main since beta, I don’t want to do anything to make ppl take their pitchforks out in mass against her.
The critibox change is more powerful than the 300/300, yes, but that’s the point. I think a big reduction in her crit box that’s harder to visually distinguish might result in even more DVA IS UNFAIR posts than 300/300 ever would.
The DM length nerf happened at the tail end of goats, and while I thought it wasn’t super necessary back then, I think it’s even MORE unnecessary now.
Every other tank has a shielding or mass-heal ability. The ONLY WAY D.va protects herself is via DM, and that’s also her only way of tanking damage for her team, since without the super old version of DM she can’t face tank damage anymore much (300/300 would help that issue a little bit).
If they reverted all the nerfs to DM and made it super long in duration again, that would over buff her and definitely put her back on DPS-mains nerf-list. But reverting the physical length would be fine and should happen.
The Micro-missle/bonus-shield-damage thing, that’s up for debate for sure.
I just think a few heroes need to do bonus damage to shields before this barrierwatch thing gets out of control, but at the same time we don’t want the bonus shield damage to be SO strong that it makes those characters with it must-picks.
We already know the next tank is going to have a shielding ability too - Mauga. So it’s like, barriers are becoming such a sickening part of the game that it wouldn’t hurt to put some slight barrier damage bonus on a tank like d.va and maybe a dps like Pharah or Soldier.
I don’t disagree about the 15 meter DM change. It would be better for D.Va and the game if it were reverted. I’m just concerned that any buff (even a warranted one) to DM would cause people to throw up the pitch forks. But I would like to see it back.
And I wouldn’t argue against the 300/300 thing, I just prefer a smaller critbox. I think it’s the biggest critbox in the game and now that armor is less effective, 300 armor doesn’t really change much. Now, if they reverted the armor changes too then I’d be more on board with it.
I don’t like the micro-missile idea. I don’t like the idea of select heroes getting shield bonus damage. Then those heroes will feel mandatory. Just bringing back dive as a counter to bunker should be enough to shake up the meta without resorting to heavy handed tactics like they did during Goats.
I forgot they messed with Armor!
Exactly what did they do again?
Because if armor is drastically different now then going back to 400A/200H might be the proper answer for her tanking damage better for her team.
400/200 on D.va was crazy before and resulted in probably the quickest nerf of all time in the history of the game…but that was back with the OLD armor rules.
However I do think 400/200 PLUS the DM length revert, would cause ppl to freak out even if it was warranted.
Also, it’s funny you mention “like they did during GOATS”…one of the main things that led to goats was them trying to make one hero the answer to an entire meta.
They seem to be going down that road again by making Sombra the Anti-Shield Queen and letting her hack remove Sigma’s barrier. Sigma is the main reason double barrier is so prominent, along with Orisa, and they seem to be trying to make Sombra an answer for that…and last time we tried to make one hero fix a meta problem (dive), we got brig, and look at how that turned out! lol
I think slight bonus damage to shields could work, if done properly. Perhaps it should be limited to a role like tanks - specifically the off-tanks, since we have 2/2/2 you’d have to give up a shield tank to counter double shield tanks with d.va, vs. giving that ability to a dps like soldier where it would make him feel like a must-pick for ANY shield. However at the same time you wouldn’t have to switch to d.va to counter a d.va, and double barrier could still be a counter to double barrier or barrier/off-tank. So the change isn’t as limiting as things were in GOATS.
At the end of the day I’m not sure how we can do it, but with the bonus shield damage idea I’m just trying to think of a way that multiple heroes could help deal with the double barrier problem vs. them continuing down the road of making Sombra the new brig. (I don’t think we’re there yet, at all, but with the recent changes on PTR I’m just afraid they’re going to go down that road…)
Or how about we nerf first instead of even MORE powercreep? Orisa and Sigma need nerfs and the only reason people argue against this are bias. How Orisa hasn’t been nerfed properly yet for so long is amazing to me
I hadn’t thought of that. But if ALL off tanks (D.Va, Zarya, Hog) had a slight anti-shield bonus then that might not be too bad. But giving it to select DPS or select tanks would make them too mandatory. The reason I’m not entirely against this is that it would force one of your tanks to not be a shield to use the shield break bonus.
The armor change was to go from a damage reduction of 5 per pellet to 3 per pellet maximum. So, it doesn’t change much with burst damage. Widow does 297 damage instead of 295 damage on a headshot. But for damage from heroes like Soldier it adds up. Like for Soldier 76 that’s 2 damage more per bullet.
“We should nerf heroes instead of buffing and adding more power creep” is becoming a buzz phrase.
I feel like a lot of people don’t even understand what power creep means, they’re just using that term- and it’s buzz phrase - to incorrectly lobby against damage buffs, or buffs in general, because youtubers are starting to use the phrase a lot and it’s catching on.
Power creep would happen if they added NEW over-buffed heroes to counter double barrier, it wouldn’t happen by buffing old heroes to better deal with the power creep of newer ones.
Yeah all of the off-tanks having the ability could really work! =)
Ahh okay!
So yeah with that I think 400/200 would probably still be too much for Dva.
You’re not reading the thread at all and just reading the title and skimming posts as justification for your righteous fury, if you think everyone here is saying buff damage.
Tanks don’t need insane damage, and nowhere have me and lumin said buff raw damage to heroes. The biggest answers to fixing dive tanks have NOTHING TO DO with raw damage numbers to heroes.
They need to revert the armor changes first. They nerfed armor to weaken GOATs and it doesn’t make sense to keep in its nerfed state.
They need to slowly work back in changes to Lúcio who was nerfed quite a bit due to GOATs.
They need to revert Dva’s Boop nerf and make it do at least 25 damage on a boop.
Give her 300 armor / hp.
I’d personally like to see her micro missions removed and give her E something called Focus Fire where for a short duration of 1.5s Dva’s primary fire can focus on targets over a longer range for the same dps.
She would not be able to fire during DM.
Or if her MM has to stay, give her bonus damage when used on barriers.
Reduce her DM down time to 1.5 seconds between uses.
Other changes I think that would help:
Pharah: for her E some bonus damage on barriers like she had in Beta.
S76: Helix rockets bonus damage on barriers.
Winston: Primary Fire: 90 dps if attacking 1 target, 75 dps on 2, 60 dps on 3 targets.
Junkrat: Flat damage of 60 on mine radius. Increase splash damage on grenades.