Blizzard, you can't balance mercy's rez as a cooldown


#31

rez on a cooldown needs to go. they could bring back mass rez but with a deadeye like LoS restriction, and without the invulnerability. and some tweaks to avoid the “hide and rez” strategy. i don’t know, something like:

  • mercy needs to have healed 10 seconds before using rez

again. i don’t know, i’m not a game developer. but rez every 30 seconds is op and we all know it. nerfing the rest of her kit to make her unplayable also works, i guess. but it’s less than ideal.


#32

Yea, I get why you might’ve misunderstood me, my first response wan’t very clear.

Gonna edit it to hopefully make it more immediately understandable.


#33

its Not broken at all though. If I’m a dps and I get an early pick and see mercy rezzed it I say “cool they used Rez let’s push” I don’t go broken op, as I now one shot two heroes with hanzo.


#34

I can’t quote others on my phone, but Mercy’s Mass Res was almost strictly used for 1-2 target resurrects. Mercy on average RIGHT before her rework was resurrecting 6 targets on average. If you Resurrect 2 targets on average, this means you would have 3 total resurrects (the ultimate, not the amount of players) in a game on average. For an ultimate that could be earned within 21 seconds of straight healing, it definitely wasn’t just held for 1 5-man and a 1-man.

Mercy currently on average holds about 6.5 resses. She is resurrecting the same (actually slightly more) targets on average per game than when it was her ultimate. Her stats completely support that Mercy players almost solely ressed 1-2 players on average. If it were larger on average, her stats would support that claim. Before S5 (rework was mid-season), Mercy held an average of 4.5 or so resurrects per game. Again, this info supports the claim that tempo resses were the go-to. Not large resses.


#35

Her base kit was not nerfed until the 50 HPS nerf, which is done not to try and balance out Resurrect, but as I said earlier, in an attempt to balance out her healing output compared to other healers. So Resurrect isn’t burdening any other part of her kit, that’s just wrong to say when all of the nerfs she received were to Valkyrie and Resurrect on cooldown, two new (effectively) abilities that were added to her belt.

Uh, no honestly, unless even more context provided me an even better reason. I never would use Mass Res to bring back one person with ult unless I was absolutely pressed to, the ultimate would always provide me and my team more value if I’m able to revert multiple kills, which translates to multiple enemy abilities having been negated. These niche circumstances do not mean anything, other than the fact that Resurrect on cooldown works much better and more consistently with these situations.

I don’t think most of this game is balanced for solo queue. It’s balanced with the idea that six players will try to work together, and if teammates are unwilling to help their Mercy pick up a fallen teammate, then that’s a bad team and they get bad results for not playing the game the way it’s intended. I don’t think there’s some “stance” the community has against supports, by the way, I don’t know where that really comes from aside from the bias most healer-mains tend to have.

I just want to point out that you don’t even need a teammate for just a slimmer of hope to successfully cast res. I can get mid-fight resses quite often without any defense needed simply by reading the situations of battle, knowing who’s tracking me, and appropriately positioning myself and taking advantage of level geometry. You don’t even need a teammate, but in more organized play, it will be necessary. Just a side note because I feel that people, as they have been, really overestimate what it takes to get a Res off, when it mostly just takes game sense.

I think this is an exaggeration of Blizzard’s intentions, which more humbly put were to make sure that Mercy was no longer overpowered. I don’t think Blizzard cares too much who is and who isn’t meta, they know metas will shift all the time, they just want to make sure a meta isn’t overbearing especially if it’s due to a hero and their overpowered kit. And all the nerfs Mercy saw were, indeed, responses to her being overpowered, not just because she was meta.

It’s not a matter if I liked it or not, it’s a matter of health, and Mass Res wasn’t healthy. Balanced? Sure, but at the cost of Mercy having a problematic kit that severely limited how she could be tweaked in future patches, which is an inevitable outcome in a game like this? Not worth it. And the Mercy we have now, after a lot of work, is balanced, she just isn’t in the meta because other healers are in higher demand.

And even that doesn’t appear to be true, since with the inclusion of Ashe, Mercy has been seeing quite a bit more play because she compliments her so well. So it does’t seem to me that Mercy’s kit is all that unbalanced, it just seems like she needs the right heroes to synergize with and the atmosphere that encourages that synergy.

Because the ability was unhealthy for the game. It wasn’t a matter of it feeling bad, it was the factual effect it had on games. Mercy was encouraged to stop playing the game, whole team fights were reverted and made pointless, victories that would otherwise go to one team definitively instead have to prove their merits again because one hero was effectively getting Starbucks and showed up late to the game, both teams were stockpiling ultimates to use all at once, and yeah, it felt really not good at the end of the day from a lot of different angles.

The ability now, at worst, doesn’t feel good for Mercy and Mercy alone. It has very little negative impact on her enemy team – reverting one kill every once in awhile doesn’t end with someone thinking they were robbed – and it has virtually no negative impact on her team and how they play. This is a huge improvement from when Mass Resurrect was dictating how both teams had to approach the game simply by existing.

This is an extremely bleak way of viewing her ability, which might be the reason the ability doesn’t feel good for you. It’s especially odd that 105 health not being healed – which, if you’re using res wisely, will be a non-issue, part of using res wisely is knowing you’re going to have to stop healing – is apparently not worth immediately restoring an ally back into the game? Which is a minimum of 150 health being restored, potentially 600? I dunno, to me, that trade-off seems extremely worth it.


#36

Except, her competition got heavy buffs in the same patch, which rendered the nerf to Mercy superfluous.

I distinctly recall saying that

What I do not recall, is saying I supported that perception.

We’ll agree to disagree, then.

So it’s alright to punish people for playing solo in a competitive system that’s all about individual performance? Odd. Never had any such issues when I solo queued on Halo’s Team Slayer Ranked ladders. :thinking:

I’ve seen my fair share of toxicity towards support players because of a lost match (regardless of who was actually at fault, and regardless of whether any individual was to blame or the team in its entirety). This most certainly is not a support main bias, although a support main will obviously be more likely take offense to support mains being marginalized vs other classes.

Mercy hasn’t been overpowered since her January nerfs… As I said, the nerf to 50 HP/s was baseless, even more so because it directly contradicts Geoff Goodman’s statement that Mercy should have the single highest healing output of all healers.

Subjective, on the level of “feels bad” to be precise. Now, what did we say about that, again?

I’d go with patently false on this one. Just look at the many suggestions for Mass Rez floating around. If the community can come up with all these ideas, there is no reason why Blizzard can’t do the same. They’ve got the stats, as a lot of people love to say.

And then there’s Jeff Kaplan going on record, on January 25th, 2018, stating:
“We tried to move Resurrection to a secondary ability, and the ability, right now, in current Overwatch, isn’t playing out as a secondary ability; it’s playing out like another ultimate ability”

This alone pretty much destroys whatever credibility E-Rez has as far as being an ability. Given all the restrictions applied to it, and Blizzard’s previous stance on it, by all means, it’s still an Ultimate.

You really should give Why I Have Yet to Not Despise Mercy's Current State a read, as it completely shuts down any subjectivity regarding the Mass Resurrect vs Valkyrie debate.


#37

It is op because like i said there shouldn’t be an ability that results in the man advantage and if it’s on a cooldown it’s like anyone can use this (if they have at least rez awareness), this type of power coming from an ability is too much(also if a junk uses his rip tire on mercy’s ally, if she rezzes him it’s like his ult was negated)


#38

Every single hero has the potential to change the man advantage. Why can’t mercy have it too? If I shoot down the tire with hanzo it was negated. And that didn’t even require the use of an ability.


#39

it’s given to her not earned, and (it has similar advantages to getting a pick) she just has to wait 30 seconds so that she can give her team an up advantage, and also I know that hanzo’s can shoot it down but hanzo earned it (or the junk didn’t think about his riptire placement) similar to how junk would earn the kill on the target, but mercy has this impact every fight that’s given for free.


#40

That’s a weird argument. If Rez is “free” so are all other abilities outside of ults. Also if I successfully get off a Rez I earned that Rez. Their was room for counterplay. I’m sorry you couldn’t do anything to counter in time.


#43

I think you’re wrong.
How do we go about deciding who is right?

So your reason is a simple assertion. If resurrect is not earned then neither is any ability on cool-down. Bio-nade is not earned according to you.
This “not earned” argument is pretty weak and I’ve refuted it many times by now. It’s simply a non-argument.

Or do what they are doing? I think Mercy is approaching a very good spot personally.
How many degrees do you have? Are any of them in game design or computer programming? Does your life depend on the game succeeding?
I’m willing to bet no.

Reading feedback and disagreeing is not ignoring. Please stop this, frankly, entitled attitude. You have no idea if your suggestions would make her more balanced. Sure you might think she would be more fun, but that is subjective.

I have a lot of fun with Mercy right now. Why should the development team cave to you instead of me? Why should they listen to you instead of me?

The horror! Other supports being viable! I was honestly relieved when the Mercy meta ended (as an ex-Mercy main turned support main). I have a lot more fun swapping between supports as the team needs.

I was Mercy for several rounds in a game yesterday. I swapped to Lucio and my team politely asked me to stay Mercy. She still has a place and she is still desired if you perform well with her.

Yeah, don’t one-trick Mercy. I’m speaking from experience.

Going backwards is not a good way to balance. Mass resurrection was removed for a reason and it should stay that way. I honestly prefer playing Mercy without mass resurrection because (back in the mass resurrection days) the win condition was to kill Mercy first. I like having slightly less attention on me so I can do my job just a little easier.

Either way, it’s not happening. I don’t care if it does, but it will not happen.

What makes bio-nade earned but not resurrection? If you’re going to make the age-old claim that it is an ultimate on cool-down don’t even bother replying because it isn’t an ultimate.

I also don’t mind if they remove it. It was never what made her fun in the first place.

Really? Because I think the best option is to not listen to you and to continue doing what they are doing. I like Mercy better now than I did with mass resurrection. Just because you think it is impossible to balance doesn’t make it true. To think so is the height of arrogance.

Mercy can keep up with the other supports and Mercy’s movement, the most fun part of her kit, has only been buffed since the mass resurrection days (more or less).
Therefore, if you think she isn’t fun anymore, then you derived your fun from mass resurrection and not the character itself.

No problem, thanks for posting!


#44

THIS

look at these numbers. Look how absurdly different the defensive assists are to the offensive, because using damage boost is too risky to do now.


#45

Brings me back to the good ol’ days of End of the Line update for TF2 and them not implementing the map because “it would be too confusing for new players”, lmao.


#46

Your opinion is so biased no one is going to listen.


#47

Hello, I should preface this by saying that this is a thread in support of the #ReworkMercy movement. After seeing various other movements, with some being better than others (#deletebrig) in terms of their actual cause, I think it’s a great thing that people are coming together with a goal on making a hero better, and in a positive light, rather than on toxicity and making heroes that we hate worse, simply because we find them “unfun to play against”. This is an opinion thread, and it’s quite a read, so feel free to sit back, relax, and enjoy!

Music for today’s read is brought to you by Just Instrumental Music

Mercy is one of the few heroes who have been on both spectrums of the tier list, being both a troll pick in some parts of her existence and a must pick at other parts.

Regardless, whether or not we agree on what we personally think Mercy is currently, I think it’s fair to say that a lot of the problems we as a community have faced, both playing with, or against the hero, have been most in part, due to her current and past ultimates: Valkyrie and Mass Ressurect.

Mass Rez, while it never existed when Mercy was a Must pick, had it’s own share of glaring problems that were never addressed - specifically the version with invincibility.

  • Was instantly cast and invincible, making it very difficult to react to and counter, once the Mercy initiated the rez. Teams had to think proactively and kill the Mercy first, in order to prevent Mercy from swooping in and undoing kills, as well as hampering her ultimate charge through staggering.
  • Was able to be used through large obstructions like walls, as well as through floors and ceilings. This encouraged bad Mercies to “hide” while rezzing.
  • Before invincibility, with Mercy’s Utimate, when she was killed before rezzing (that is she dies right as she pressed Q), her ult didn’t expire, but was merely “delayed” until she respawned. This meant that if a team did successfully stop the mercy first and take out the team, Mercy still could walk out of spawn and be able to pull it off, without needing to build it again. From what I understand there are other heroes that had this “glitch” as well with their ultimates, and some may argue that it made sense, as she has one of the longest building ultimates in the game, but still, it’s just a point to make with such a powerful ability.

Valkyrie, supposedly designed to fix these issues, turned out to be a monster of it’s own, turning Mercy into a literal S-tier hero, a must pick, and introducing what we know as the Mercy Meta / Moth Meta. With Rez on E and a 30 second cooldown that reset when she built her ult, the effect this version of her had on the community can be described as… contraversial and mixed, to say the least - with the first iteration being the greatest example.

  • Faster self healing, greater mobility during flight, longer GA range, and more damage / infinite bullets with her pistol over the course of a long 12 second duration made Mercy one of the hardest heroes to kill on a 1v1.
  • Res charges were instant, allowing for tempo resses (due to the res reset), but Mercy was still invincible when doing so, meaning that on top of her defensive dominance, offensively, her resses were even harder to stop.
  • From a balance standpoint, it was apparently a lot more difficult to put under control, requiring roughly 14 nerfs, to get Mercy back to a balancable state, making it one of the most unbalanced ultimates that have ever existed, and making Mercy one of the most nerfed heroes (if not the most nerfed hero) in the entire game. Post nerfs, it ended up being arguably the least impactful / rewarding / engaging ults in the game, due to it’s lower healing .

While these cons of both ultimates have caused a lot of grief in their own ways from the opposing party. I believe it’s good to also point out the positives of each.

Mass Rez:

  • One of the only ults that directly checked Ult Economy on a global scale, and punished things like “Q spamming” / “Most Qs Win” (which besides being unfun to play against, is a huge problem that exists even today) in order to win games.
  • Was engaging, rewarding, and impactful. So much so that most teams had to strategize around it, and take it seriously during the match, and messing up a mass res put the team at a huge disadvantage.
  • High risk / high reward for an otherwise vulnerable and safe hero playstyle. It gave Mercy players a clear goal, and made working around her huge offensive weaknesses, being focused down, and targeted for most of the game, worth the struggle.

Valkyrie:

  • Flight and infinite ammo allowed “Battle Mercy” to be a more viable strategy. It gives more security to an otherwise vulnerable hero, which is great when your hero is one of the weakest heroes offensively on a 1v1.
  • It being low risk / low reward, and along with rez on E having more counterplay (LoS, and a 1.75s cast time) means that it’s a lot more fun to play against. When Mercy is Valking, your initial strategies won’t require too much alteration to accommodate for the ultimate.
  • Valkyrie’s ease of use also makes her more accessible to new players who may want a hero that doesn’t demand to much from them in terms of proper timing, when compared to Mass Rez where it’s usage can make or break you in a push.

To solve these issues, while taking elements from the positives of both ultimates, I believe that the best solution for the hero, cutting dev time with using previously existing assets, and working from an already tested platform of existing abilities without risking another unprepared for “OP Mercy Meta”, would be a Revert of Mass Rez + Tweaks, and Valkyrie as the E move which is once again, tweaked to spec.

Mercy Rework (2 versions):

  • Ver 1. Ultimate: Ressurect - Now with Line of Sight, a 30% damage reduction instead of invincibility, a fixed 1.25s cast time, in line with her “Heroes Never Die!” voiceline, (the time of each cast time are obviously subject to change, AKA. please don’t get caught up on these numbers, these are just placeholder values).

  • Ver 2. Ultimate: Ressurect - Now with Line of Sight, a 40% damage reduction instead of invincibility, a dynamic cast time, with larger resses taking longer to pull off than smaller ones: 1 teammate = 1s cast, 2 teammates = 1.25s cast, 3 teammates = 1.50s cast, 4 teammates = 1.75s cast, and 5 teammates = 2s cast (the time of each cast time are obviously subject to change, AKA. please don’t get caught up on these numbers, these are just placeholder values).

Optional variations: Having it work similar to McCree’s Ultmate where filling up crosshairs = number of people ressed, giving allies and herself burst healing upon the res but with the same 1.0 charge time, or having it function in a wave radius. Keep in mind as well, that Versions 1 and 2 are merely suggestions, can be changed to suit the balance of the game. The point is to get them in a place where they have counterplay, but are still engaging, rewarding, and impactful.

Notable Differences vs Mercy 1.0:

  • Mercy now loses all Ultimate charge if she dies before the Rez is completed. Very important, as this prevents the cheeky “ult resets” that has happened in the past. As a compensation for this, Mercy players now have the ability to cancel their ult (like McCree). This resets her ult charge back to zero, deletes all of the souls within her radius (setting those team mates respawn timers to zero immediately) and also allows her to boost forward 20m, in any direction, without the need for GA. More on how that would work can be explained here.

In short, this will allow for more complexity in not only how to use Rez offensively, but also how to use it defensively, while introducing new mechanics such as soul cancelling, which prevents team mates who died from staggering on respawn and managing death timers, among other things, while still allowing for counter-play.

  • Variable cast times with Rez that is built through ult charge, instead of one fixed cast every 30 seconds, will allow for more appropriately weighted risks per reward. In effect, building your ult just to pull of 1 rez is safer, but it shouldn’t be as rewarding as if 3 team mates were rezzed. This will put high stakes of more team mates into perspective, prevent “hide and rezzing” with more susceptibility to fail on riskier rewards, with smaller rewards having lesser impact on the game, and also allow for bigger payoffs for higher skilled Mercy players, for risks that are taken and succeed, despite the heavier drawbacks.

Along with this would be Valkyrie on E.

  • New E ability: Valkyrie - 25 second cooldown and a 6 second duration. Keep the same aspects as before (flight / inf bullets)
  • Half it’s previous GA range, a single target beam, and a boost of her healing to 75hps and damage boost to 35%.
  • This ability will also give Mercy some ult charge (I’d say a 10% increase over her standard healing and damage boost, but again, numbers can change where needed).

Notable Differences vs Current Valkyrie:

  • Valkyrie being an E move will mean that Mercy will have more opportunities to be more of an individual hero in playstyle, and less of a “pocket healer”. This will allow for more opportunities of big plays, instead of standing on the sidelines.
  • A single stronger beam allows her burst healing, while also staying true to her original “switching between team mates” design.
  • Half it’s range and duration would mean less time in the skybox, and being more engaged with the fight.

Optional: To encourage Mercy players to change targets even more and to compensate for the removal of her chain heals, her single target healing in this form jumps to 80hp/s or a 40% damage boost whenever she switches targets for 1.12s, before decaying back down to 75hp/s and 35% dmg boost. Allowing for Mercy players to be rewarded for helping the rest of her team mates, instead of idly standing next to one of them the entirety of the match.

The key here would be to give Valkyrie more value and make it feel better than how it does currently. I feel that due to it’s more casual gameplay, having an already short ult charge, and already being her best escape move, having it on a fixed timer makes more sense while opening the doors to more variety in it’s usage.

I talk more about Swapping the two in my other thread Swap E-Rez with Valkyrie | Make Rez an Ultimate Again which goes into detail between the two a little bit more, and shares my view on why I feel that Valk works a lot better as an ability than Rez, not only from a player standpoint, but from a balance standpoint as well. Do feel free to give it a look. :slight_smile:

TL;DR

Mercy’s Current state is balanced statistically - albeit a bit under-powered, but can use some improvement in the engagement, impact, and reward department. I believe that a rework could solve these issues. Namely, Mass Rez + The Tweaks, and Valkyrie as an E move. Whatever we think about Mercy currently, with movements like #ReworkMercy, we should strive to focus on improving heroes in a positive way, rather than simply gutting them because we hate playing against them.

Regardless, these are just some of my own solutions, and (just to make it clear) my own opinion regarding Mercy’s current state, her issues, and my view of a Rework that can fix her most common problems both to play with and against. Do you agree with the changes? Maybe you don’t and / or think she doesn’t need any changes. Any other suggestions? Whatever the case, feel free to post below, keep it civil and respectful, and let’s strive to make Mercy a hero that is engaging, rewarding, and impactful, while also being balanced, fun, and fair for everyone.

Thanks for reading! :blush:


~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
#ReworkMercy
:blue_heart:


#48

As is yours. I respect your opinion nonetheless though, and thanks for sharing! :blush:


~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
#ReworkMercy
:blue_heart:


#49

Thank you blush emoji


#50

My only concern with the cast time per teammate dead, is it is extremely abusable. Mercy naturally has a cast time, meaning if she can start the cast before anybody (or more than one person) dies, she can essentially get a 5-man res for the price of a 1-man res. And there really isn’t a way to fix this unless it locks onto the single soul and refuses to res anybody after casting.

But even then, that may cause issues, bugs, or incorrect res counter (like she used to have) that would need to be fixed. It might be safest to go with a single set res cast time.

As for Valk being on 6s with 75 HPS, that’s a long time for that amount of consistent healing. I personally don’t agree with it amping her numbers at all, but of course we will all have differing opinions. :slight_smile:


#51

I don’t want to sound like a total jerk, but I am not reading all of that. TL;DR next time please.


#52

TL;DR Valkyrie is boring, Mass Rez is engaging, rewarding and impactful and can help save polar bears from extinction