I gotta admit, from both a gameplay and identity perspective, I kind of despise “One”. That’d pretty much destroy the character for me. You might as well have changed Winston’s attack style such that he has to sit in an oversized wooden tub and throw bananas to deal damage and, predominantly, CC. It’s that level of character-breaking change to me.
…“Two” doesn’t fair much better. I don’t see why you’d want to make Sentry even less fluid or accessible, requiring that it be used only when set up behind shields that can stay for long enough for the CD to have gotten value.
I honestly think you’re giving Sentry’s damage too much credit here. Yes, it can do up to 450 DPS when every bullet lands from pre-falloff range, but unless the enemy’s exposed contiguous surface area is close or large enough to cover an entire 3 arc-degrees radius, that’s not going to happen. Once small enough or far enough to cover only 1.5 arc-degrees, his expected DPS is already reduced to 112.5. At .75 degrees covered, it’s down to 28 DPS. Etc., etc. It’s just the inverse square law. Against a McCree-sized enemy just some 25 meters away, Ashe has noticeably higher DPS than Bastion, even without her headshotting.
But you seem to have zero appreciation of being BETTER at your job due to the Damage Reduction (DR) of Ironclad.
This isn’t making you feel worse, this is making your ability to negate damage that hits back to normal.
This is impossible, we can’t win, Bastion can’t get higher Damage resistance because one side says “too powerful with pocket healers” then it can’t be compensated for as healers just don’t like how it “feels”.
It would be terrible because it would be terrible.
Flawless logic.
Overwatch: A game where people complain about a hero working.
Not really, the number 8 position and Symmetra is the number 1 position.
Why do these heroes have high winrates, I think a part of it is they’re played far more by those who main that hero and there’s far more pressure on them to prove they can do it as losses are overwhelmingly blamed on the “off meta” heroes.
But you gave bastion a barrier to stack.
Hey, I was really keen on the idea of tank bastion but after hearing what the devs have said about moving heroes I’ve gone off the idea. Better to try to make Bastion work as a Damage Hero.
Yeah, as DPS like Torb. Who has 350HP (150 armour) with Overload.
Why?
This is you saying to to higher ironclad, what about the downsides like healing from external sources being lowered by an equal amount as damage is reduced?
Hmm, why does this appeal to much
That’s just stating the obvious.
“if you water a plant too much it’ll drown, if you water a plane too little then it’ll wilt”
Then… DON’T DO TOO MUCH OR TOO LITTLE!
This applies for everything.
Did it though?
People told a lot of utter nonsense about that like said “BASTION CAN SURVIVE A POINT BLANK DVA NUKE!” yeah… if combined with a Nanoboost ultimate. That’s using an offensive ultimate defensively, when a zarya bubble would be just as effective.
And there is a solution to the healing synergy with higher damage resistance like the ironclad reducing healing from external sources as much as it reducing incoming damage.
But healers don’t like this idea.
And applies the least for bastion as so many people just straight up don’t like playing bastion no matter how viable he is. He’s not like a cool gunslinger or a cyborg ninja
Yeah, I saw a comparison between TF2’s engine and Torb since his major rework and the conclusion is that Torb’s turret is so incredibly weak that he might as well not have a turret, the hero’s turret has such an insignificant contribution.
In order to fix the turret based hero they turned turret into an almost completely irrelevant ability.
Thank you so much for recognising this and saying this.
:O
He’s a scapegoat in lower ranks.
Everyone tries to scapegoat every hero but they get smacked down for trying it by their mains but… hardly anyone main bastion so people get away with scapegoating.
The reality is Bastion is one of the least played heroes even in Bronze.
Though the forums are a wonderfull catch 22, bastion is simultaneously useless yet also far too good. The best and the worst hero at the same time.
It would be terrible because of how games with Bastion play. It should go without saying but the bunker down comp is the style that is fairly hated by the community.
You may have a VERY clear idea what you’re referring to but you haven’t actually said what. It doesn’t go without saying, what do you actually mean about any bunker comp?
If it’s not possible to come up with compensatory nerfs that don’t involve odd interactions with teammates or blinding the character, then it sounds like Bastion is just badly designed.
If it makes you feel any better, I have no problem with any of those buffs. I guess I’d put C at the bottom because it doesn’t do anything for Recon.
On a cooldown ability and a big one as well. There is a reason for that, it’s basically a tank transformation, 350hp with a large part of it being armor makes somebody more durable than zarya and Sigma who have only 400 hp with 0 armor.
Because it’s not op, doesn’t change much with the damage breakpoints necesary to deal with him but gives bastion a skillfull ability and team utility beyond breaking shields.
We have HAD a bunker meta (albeit without Bastion) and we have all played Junkertown to experience what it would be like if you even had half a Bastion meta. Does it really need to be explained how playing bunker is terrible? How the act of piling around a Bastion while both sides shoot at the shields and make small adjustments to position is the antithesis of fun?
I want to meet people who actually want this to be the meta, because I have never met them. I know a lot of the opposite, but it is like how I am always shocked to meet a person who was happy to play GOATS, because they were a small minority.
Bastion isn’t the only hero with damage reduction you know!
This is all about damage reduction as a mechanic and I don’t like how people are so selectively intolerant of it when it comes to bastion.
Hmm, I kidna assumed E would be for sentry mode only, though I admit I didn’t mention it.
Guess that’s a kybosh on that as well. I wasn’t too excited about that either, just wanted to hear people’s thoughts on it.
Wait, exactly how does this barrier work? Because that sounds very different from any existing barrier.
You press the button and… it appears on the front of bastion like in the beta? If it’s a barrier you raise and lower like Brig or Rein’s barrier then that’s not a resource meter.
Potatoad made a good point about too much being put into sentry and not enough into recon.
Yeah, the duration and cooldown would mean you’d need to use it like Genji’s deflect, you’d have to accurately anticipate or very quickly react to a threat.
it’s telling that even in the bunker meta bastion wasn’t used.
No, but you do need to explain why bastion was still dead last and lowest pickrate even during the bunker meta.
And it won’t change with this bastion main, I don’t like bunker comps either. Not just because they’re boring but also because they’re fundamentally flawwed.
If you’re much of a military history nerd they’re like the Maginot Line in WW2. This was an incredibly strong series of fortifications but it turned out to be useless as it was immobile. It was forced to be passive and more mobile forces easily bypassed it.
Oh, I’ve got no problem with Ironclad as it is on Live! (Or Orisa’s Fortify, Ana’s Nano-Boost, etc.) I’m not meaning to say that Bastion shouldn’t get buffed either, I’m fine with that. I just meant compensatory nerf X. I would rather Bastion not get that nerf at all, even if he actually needed a compensation nerf, because it screws around with his teammates a bit. I don’t like Y for similar reasons.
Trying to address the problem. Right now Sentry is the problem. It adds a lot of downsides, which are easily capitalized on. But, you can’t buff it to defend against those threats because it is really powerful and would make him broken. There needs to be a way to add openings for the enemy that don’t involve Bastion getting rolled. That is the idea of a CD, so there are times he has to be out of Sentry. But, that could allow Sentry to have better defenses. If Sentry is not active 100%, it can be strong without being unbeatable.
I think you missed the point. There really isn’t a balance point. That is why I called it a razor’s edge. It is like trying to balance a 4’ 2x4 on a Razor. In theory it would be possible, but it isn’t going to happen. And with all the different skills levels and moving parts, you add mice running back and forth on that 2x4.
Yes. I played with it. It was stupid. With just a little support he was near unkillable.
It is really not a solution. Either you can kill him quickly or you die. Doesn’t matter if the support is all internal or external. The same balance problem arises.
Lots of people liked playing him when he was OP. People play heroes that work. They liked him when he did. He doesn’t now, so people don’t play him.
It’s just too much when “hey I just need a bit of healing for my ult huuuuuh, NO healing at all?!?”
With ironclad reducing healing it’s may be something that’s completely unnoticed just as most healers don’t notice the advantage of DR.
After someone is hit by firestrike it normally takes the exact same amount of time to heal that damage. For Mercy when she did 50HPS it took 2 seconds to heal damage of firestrike. But on sentry it took only 1.6 sec as the Firestrike only did 80 damage.
So you can’t shoot while the barrier is up?
And the barrier moves around as you look around?
The Role queue system has certain expectations from a tank and despite recon’s hitbox size bastion still fits easier into the DPS role as a very tanky Damage Hero than trying to fit him into the role expected for tanks in Tank Role Queue.
One reason I wanted to increase Bastion’s armour ratio was this was just as much of a buff to recon mode as sentry mode. And really, recon needs it as much as sentry.
The problem is wherever anyone wants to move bastion there’s someone standing there with their hands in their pockets saying “obviously this is the STUPIDEST direction to possible take bastion, how DARE you provoke my rage by even thinking of making bastion more like this”
Hey… they problem isn’t that I don’t understand the analogy.
The problem is I don’t believe it.
Because you’re not making any sort of objective argument.
When bastion’s spread was fixed at 3 degrees, everyone said any buff to sentry’s spread would RUIN the hero. The spread was buffed, the “razor’s edge” theory didn’t pan out. Then they buffed bastion’s spread AGAIN… STILL the “razor’s edge” never proved to be real.
That’s an objective argument, look, they buffed bastion’s attack A LOT and it hardly did anything.
You almost certainly got no real experience with it as it was literally removed within 48 hours.
But the community was quick making youtube videos hysterically exaggerating the situation and the devs clearly panicked over this sudden and extreme backlash.
You can’t dismiss a valid solution by stating the obvious, you are just stating the obvious that “Either you can kill him quickly or you die.” that is a dismissal that works for literally any hero.
Yes it does because the internal healing (self-repair) is mutually exclusive with attacking.
For 48 hours?
People are rewriting history, acting like the youtube videos that exaggerated the problem were the real history.
Actually it did. He just never got over the edge. Ironclad is the best example of crossing it. It is less about the exact amount of damage or even the range he can do it at. It is whether or not he can survive your burst. Once he can, you basically can’t beat him. If he can’t, he is easy to counter.
I did. I got to play both with it and against it for quite a bit.
Some did. But he was still VERY broken.
You are missing the point. Let me say it really simple. It does not matter if the healers provide the survivability or if he does. It doesn’t matter if the tanks provide it or he does. The total amount is the question. Sure, you can increase his own at the cost of healer support, but it doesn’t change the total.
Yes. He was in basically every game. Usually on each side.
No, I am remembering, as I was there. Nice try though.
That’s not a razor’s edge, that’s 35% damage reduction.
And the main objection was 35% stacking with damage resistance of Ana’s ultimate. Which was stopped anyway regardless of what Bastion’s damage reduction is, Nanoboost cannot stack with any other source of damage resistance.
This sounds like someone who’s fought bastion very few times and think they have the hero totally figured out but you don’t seem to care about the opinion of people who have played AS BASTION against every hero in the game.
I want more facts, less conjecture.
It’s a fact the 35% ironclad was available barely 48 hours, this is an insignificant period of time.
It’s not only conjecture, it’s just a vague pejorative to say bastion is broken. It’s not remotely constructive, it just says “give up”.
If I heard from a mechanic repeatedly say “yeah, the car’s broken” but couldn’t ever say what’s wrong with it I’d know that mechanic was a fraudster and just wanted me to sell my car for cheap and buy one of his used cars.
I don’t want to heard “broken” from you again, no more analogies, say what SPECIFICALLY is the problem.
So with the car analogy “your car’s suspension is snapped, it’s only being held together by the bodywork, it will cost more to repair this car than scrapping it and buying a replacement”
You’re putting it TOO simply.
I know you’ve got it clear in your head but you need to make it clear in text, explain the whole thing. Don’t just give me the conclusions of your thought process.
Look at all the people who flood the forums right now saying “Bastion is everywhere, he’s literally in every single game” only right now bastion’s pickrate is less than half of 1% in the ranks they claim they were in.
Do you have any corroborating evidence at all?
Did you make a post at the time that you can now cite which shows you thought that at the time and you aren’t just forgetting all the forgettable games without Bastion?
After all, it was only a day or two several years ago.
I don’t like any of them. They don’t increase his tactical versatilty at all nor do they help him keep up with a more mobile team that can give and take ground.
These just brute force his way into relevance and that won’t last for very long.