Thanks for encouraging my conviction and giving me the motivation I needed to finish a related project. I’ve got something coming in the next couple weeks. Stay tuned…!
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Many times, indicates bad play more than good play tho.
Basically, if fights were won fast it is impossible to get these kinds of numbers as are from fights going on too long and the player repeating the same actions over and over waiting for someone else to win a teamfight.
My best healing in a game is 40k and my most barrier blocked is 58k in comp.
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of the 12 players in the game, only 4 people will get cards…and literally a card will be for anything, so thats not a good indication.
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A bad Reinhardt doesn’t simply get 40k - 60k blocking. The only way that can happen is the player knows how to properly use their shield, and uses it very often. In ADDITION to not dying and feeding their brains out.
Typically very bad Reinhardt players tend to have 16-22k blocking. By that, meaning players who tend to die very often.
You’re also ignoring other factors. How exactly does a team fight go on too long? Why? And what is expected of a Reinhardt in such a situation? If on every push they get pushed back, their shield breaks, and they retreat to cover? If the Reinhardt cannot close space, how is that his fault? Do you suggest they Charge in? Now there’s an idea… (/s)
Be more thorough with your strategy here. How and why exactly does a game such as this persist? It’s likely because there are GOOD players on BOTH teams adding TONS of value to their teams, making it difficult for either team to win the advantage.
Or, you mean to tell me you got 58k blocking on a team roll? When your supports keep dying or cannot heal you? When your DPS can’t land kills or push their Tank line back? Or when your Tanks (and you) cannot make space for your DPS? These are not exclusive questions, and other situations more than allow for further discussion.
Just, be thorough. You cannot simply point to yourself and decide you are the only reason your team couldn’t push.
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I said it was an indicator and yes you can get 40k-60k playing badly. It’s not proof but it does so that fights are going on too long and there is a problem in the team as a player if there is a problem anyone can fix it or at least try to. Not reacting and repeating over and over is bad play.
As for feeding and dying, if you’re always shielding and never making plays it worse than taking risks, not only do you become predictable your team will herd around you and become predictable too.
You need to have a plan, whether that be ok shield until 100 Zarya charge and make a play or I’m gonna get to X and make space. The issue with bad reins is they’ll never fully commit to this and shield and back off (sometimes it the right thing) when they don’t even understand disengaging can be worse than trying to trade or make space at risk.
I will say in some games you’ll just have a massive barrier blocked cause of your shield being insta gibbed and it doesn’t indicate anything.
Either way, the point still large amount of barrier block is an indicator to someone using shield too much and not an indicator to a good player.
My SR 3k peak 3.3k or 3.4k on Rein 217 comp hours.
While I can’t disprove your opinion only disagree. I can disprove this.
Shock who is in Top 500 has an average blocked 20k so over 50% of his games he blocks block less than this … he’s not a very bad player.
My average is 18k last season and I was in diamond … which meaning I’m not a bad player.
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The blame game, crap… I never blame the team, if a team struggles or can’t get value from my barrier I’ll adapt and try to win a different way or enable them a different way. I’m not gonna just let my shield break and recharge over and over when it isn’t working. I don’t waste my time wishing for better teammates but try to play to the strengths of the ones I have.
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Again, how?
How does blocking that much damage mean you are playing badly, when it is by principle the primary function of that character?
This addresses a different issue and deals with the specifics of any options available to the player at the time.
If a player either does not realize these options, or does not seize the opportunity to capitalize, then yes, it is on the player for not doing anything.
Just standing back and blocking is not all that should be done with a character such as Reinhardt. But no one is saying this is the case, obviously.
Definitively.
I believe the original question is the case where said plans/strategies do not work.
Specifically, one, you’re relying/depending on your Zarya to get full charge to make a play. Worst case, they never do, and they never build ult. Then what? That is the core of the question I just asked.
And, two, you decide to break off towards X to make space. You do that and expose your team to flankers or divers, and your midline gets picked off. You make it to X, and no one else does. Then what?
Not dying tends to be one of the best things you can do in this game.
How is disengaging the enemy worse? You disengage, regroup, and try again. In what world is disengaging bad?
Unless you’re trying to suggest such a Reinhardt player would consider disengaging during the middle of a push, then yes. That is absurd.
Case and point.
It indicates that shields are useless at certain vantage points and that shields need to be saved, or to rely on firestrikes and to use cover. It indicates a lot of things to a good Reinhardt player.
You’ve stated two things here.
One is a player who shields too much.
The second is a player who is able to shield well above the average.
I wouldn’t compare anyone in metallic ranks to anyone in top 500.
Because you’re suggesting that Reinhardt players should only block around 20k damage on average, indicating that they’re a good player - when just as easily a Reinhardt can charge in 10 times, feed then die after their shield breaks, and in the end score 16k - 22k blocking from feeding their brains out.
So, that effectively indicates nothing.
You have yet to indicate why a low amount of blocking indicates good gameplay.
There’s no blame, except where it is due.
If a Reinhardt player charges in, dies, and the team loses the fight 5v6, then regardless of your skill or your personal contributions, it will not be enough to win the fight. Worst case scenario.
Why is it so difficult to accept that bad players make bad plays? Why is it wrong to call them out on it?
Imagine getting blamed by the feeding tank for not healing enough.
As for blame, no. There is always some level of personal responsibility, and more often than not tends to be more exacting on the individual than what the team can tell you. For example, not hitting many firestrikes or getting your shatters blocked, or having bad positioning, or getting Sleeped/Pinned, etc. There is accountability, but you refuse to acknowledge it in other players.
And, yes, I think many Reinhardt players here would agree that changing tactics and approaching the situation differently when something isn’t working is appropriate. Being repetitive and doing the same things over and over, whether passive or aggressive, is generally bad.
And… that isn’t what’s being asked here.
I’m telling you that certain situations cannot be helped because you cannot control every other player on your team. Where you have a plan or see an opportunity, others may have an entirely opposite idea of what to do. This is not blame, this is simply the nature of being an individual.
Acknowledging that people can still fail to work together shouldn’t be that far fetched of an idea. There is no way for you as an individual to effect 100% of the outcome in a game. Why is that countered with the assumption that people just blame everyone else for the loss?
There is a difference, between blaming someone for their mistakes (especially if its an obvious one) while refusing to acknowledge your own - and blaming yourself only and ignoring the mistakes others make on your team.
There is a vast spectrum of acknowledgement, both in good plays and bad plays. Some of that comes down to acknowledging that your team isn’t playing as well as it could, especially if you see where it could. Some of it comes down to knowing your limits and not knowing what to do, and trying to be the change you wish to see.
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Yes you can’t win every game but in every game to can maximize your value everygame. Some game you will lose no matter what tho.
Barrier thing I explained doesn’t indicate a good player but can indicate a bad player. That doesn’t mean proof there a bad player ofc.
How you can get a ton of barrier blocked. Shield till break > walk back > Recharge > Shield till break and doing nothing else. People do, do this and lots of people use the shield the wrong way.
As for the rest context is key.
Cause it doesn’t help. Asking someone to help you or if they can do something is good but calling someone out for failing in a play is just you wishing for someone better and it isn’t advice. Helps no one.
It’s easier for you to adapt than hope a player can magically improve by you say “OH cree switch”
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Of course. That’s not what I wish to dispute. However I’ll address that briefly.
If the general Shield block > walk back > Recharge doesn’t work, that opens up several options. Ideally you can then use the shield as a window to have DPS able to poke briefly into the corner, while also minimizing shield exposure/maximizing its lifetime. Since you now know your shield risks imminent breakage, you have to be more careful and attentive to the attack direction of the enemy team, watch for flanks, and generally allow your team to pivot towards the objective safely.
If it’s in a wide arena, there are fewer options, such as Attack on Junkertown, but generally you’ll want to get your team to cover as quickly as possible and minimize their exposure to damage. Once more, cover is thine friend.
As for the rest, try to land firestrikes, punish anyone that gets too close, and know when to move up or back off. Positioning and not dying are chiefly two of the most important skills anyone can learn in OW.
You would be surprised how many people don’t understand that.
Again, you assume things you have no idea of.
Me? You’re assuming I do those things?
No.
Asking a Reinhardt to come back when you know they’re exposed to a flank, or have left their core team exposed, isn’t helpful? Asking your teammate to do something politely that you believe can help the team, and they ignore you, and die, doesn’t help?
That is absurd.
But by that point enough time has gone on from politely asking to telling them why they keep dying. And asking them why they continue to disregard their team. Usually the plays are so bad there’s nothing anyone can say.
There is a key difference between asking your teammate why they did something or offering a suggestion, than blatantly telling them they suck or to switch. If anything, I always tell people to pick what they want and to play their best Characters. That is all.
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Not assuming anything, explaining why calling someone out isn’t helpful. Asking for help or someone to do something to enable is cool but too much can be backseat gaming or building presumptions about a player.
If a tank blames me for not healing I’ll either explain why or explain it’s impossible to heal him anymore… if he wants to continue to tilt, I’ll let him but there is a chance he might work out himself that he can play better. If you ask why are you dieing it’ll cause him to be defensive and just deflect blame at you.
On a side note, why questions, in general, will cause people to be defensive because it can be perceived to infer blame even when it may not. There’s huge studies on this and I came across it via management training.
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Again, there are stark differences between players that accuse others of underperforming, and the actual inability to perform.
Asking someone to do something reasonable setting them into full tilt is one of the primary problems within this community. Additionally, not saying anything will not change what they have already done or failed to do.
It’s not my job to play therapist. If a polite attitude is what sets people off, then so be it. It will not stop anyone from pointing out the obvious, if not before calling for a reset or to fall back.
Much more so that those issues should be pointed out on the forums, however it does not change the fact that people doing bad things in game are still bad.
Incredibly hypocritical of those arguing for skill to denounce others for criticizing their teammates, yet immediately do so whenever they feel it’s appropriate to critique someone else.
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That’s not true, cards are awarded to the top performers of the match. That why “only 4 peple will get cards.”
It’s not a participation trophy, it is for outstanding stats. These are exactly the kinds of stats that get you flagged for sandbagging in subsequent matches via MMR/handicapping.
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No, the principle function of reinhardt is not to use his shield to block damage. He enforces space with hammer damage and his shield is primarily a tool to let him get to or stay in a position to do that.
I am trying to get better at rein and have invested in coaching on how to play him, and basically the idea is to use shield as little as possible and to swing as much as possible.
You can easily get high damaged blocked numbers and a card every game by playing like a dunce and standing in the open holding up your shield so your teammates can also position badly in the open and fire at the enemy. The coach I retained called this ‘firing platform’ reinhardt and this is wrong and bad play. Your teammates should be using cover. However playing in this manner is going to result in very high damaged blocked stats most games. Shielding well probably is not going to consistently result in such high damaged blocked numbers.
Disengaging the enemy costs you time. If you are on attack and have burden to do something then constantly retreating / regrouping will result in losing the game. Sometimes it is better to play aggressively for trades rather than backing off. Reinhardt is not a character that provides more value as the fight goes on. His shield generally won’t be recharging much during the fight so his value drops as the fight goes on. A character like McCree will provide more value the longer the fight goes on because he can left click basically infinitely. So if you can get use your shield to get to an engagement and trade out for a higher value target sometimes that is the right play.
SVB has a video where he interviews LHCloudy on how to play rein, and one of the points was that if you are down in the fight then often the correct thing to do is make an aggressive risky play to try and get a quick trade back or lose the fight and reset quickly - especially if the opposing team used a lot of resources to get the pick. For example on KOTH maps the team that wins the first fight often has an advantage in holding the point so it might be worth it to take risks to try and turn the first fight.
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This also happens in Quick play lol. When I win 5 games in a row because I obliterate everyone, I will get next 6 games when I can’t do anything. I’ll get bronze players and my enemies will be in gold or platinum so a huge difference in skills…
I have tracked my last 200 quick play games and this pattern is very obvious actually…if I win 2 games in a row, the game will make sure I loose 2 games in a row, If I win 7 games in a row, it will make sure I will loose 7 in a row…I would post pictures If I could…and this is just not based on skill, this is quickplay…it is predeterminated…AND I can tell this wasn’t the case 4 years ago, it just started a year ago approximately.
It’s just too strange…statistically it’s almost impossible to loose 5 games in a row after winning 5 games in a row…and have this pattern for 200 games…bigger chance is that you’ll win a lottery lol…So although I believe you can climb in ranked when you’re really good, I still think that the game is doing it’s best to keep you at 50% winrate
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I also tend to think that this pattern is obvious, but the vast majority of Overwatch players do not know it is algorithmically handicapped, and there are a lot of reasons for this. One reason is that players are not negatively effected by MMR until relatively late in their careers. You mentioned that you don’t think handicapping existed 4 years ago, and I can tell you that it certainly did exist (read the developer statement in my original post).
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Blizzard admits that it groups players into teams such that the probability of either team winning is 50/50, which means it has to find teammates for you that make your chance of winning into a coin-flip. This active construction of teams is a form of handicapping and is no secret.
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I can’t believe this algorithmic handicapping is allowed to continue. I really can’t believe they don’t have the staffing to fix the ladder (Geoff said 200+ people). It’s not hard to clean up the swamp. Bring me into a zoom meeting and I’ll fix it all for free. No wait, I’ll pay YOU guys to let me fix it. Starting with some HR changes.
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If they were in academia they would have to ask permission before performing such a psychological experiment upon the masses (willing or not). I doubt the review board would approve it.
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Seriously. Anyone who’s playing this game, thinking it’s just any old ladder would probably want to sue the pants off of Blizzard once they found out they’ve been wasting their time in system built to make it harder for them every time they performed well. Many players found this game to be extremely frustrating, more than most games, and filled with trolls, throwers and bad players on their team. Now, you find out that these players were put on your team on purpose each time you raise your MMR by playing well, in some effort to force and “even match.”
It should be illegal. Activision can suck it. I’m never playing another of their games. From what I hear, Call of Duty switched to a similar system in recent years and people can’t stand that either.
Experiment failed, I’d say.
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True. And a friendly reminder to any community members not to accept the updated EULA/ToS if you’re involved in the class-action against rigging. Just don’t sign into bnet with your main account (use an alt or a family member’s account). That should be enough to keep the developing class action suit on the table.
They updated bnet ToS today (June 1st, 2021) with waiver against class action. Which is clearly in response to the ongoing algorithmic rigging and players realizing they’re effectively at a gambling house. And I guess their legal had a review and realized “oopsie” they’re liable to pay damages if this goes through.
Not to mention all the new monitor and data ownership stuff they’re asking for. At this point keep your main offline and never agree to their terms until the class action is processed.
Correct. Many authorities/jurisdictions would fully disaprove, suspend operations, and seek damages/corrections. As of today, they realize they are culpable here so watch out for the new EULA/ToS agreements!
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When you get better, don’t you want to play against people who are an even match for you?
If you demonstrate an increase in skill, who should you be matched against? The same people you just beat? Do you want to keep beating people? How is that fair for your opponents? Don’t they want to play someone that is the same skill as them? Why should they keep getting put in a game with you if you’ve demonstrated that you have more skill than them?
What exactly are you even advocating for?