Algorithmic Handicapping (MMR) is Wrong for Overwatch

The Blizzard matchmaker in ALL their games is designed to do one thing and one thing only – ensure a complete and utter STOMP.

EVERY one of their games uses the exact same crappy algorithm that’s based on individual play from chess, which doesn’t account AT ALL for team dynamics.

They literally need to scrap their entire matchmaking system and start over from scratch. It’s THAT BAD.

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Thankfully OW does not do this at all

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dude i got most garbage mercy lol , idk people even bad with mercy.
yeah we need fix mm
why good player should be punish with bad players and expect no toxic reflex ?
not fun play with tank don’t know who to make space.
no fun play with mercy overheal shield tank.
no fun play with dps who cant aim.

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How about building separate systems to deal with that, instead of trying to build it into the MM?

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Ya, “work”.
Or whatever you call blabbering endlessly on the phone, believing you are important, while ripping the soul out of the products your company produces (especially relevant for big gaming companies).

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spoken like someone who is a wage slave.

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It’s not necessarily bad players who I get consistently in my team to handicap me. Most recent experiences are people that go AFK at crucial moments (last fight in overtime) or throwers (they get angry, pick Lucio and speed boost away from the team the rest of the match).

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Daym!
That’s hell a lotta words you wrote over there, partner. Too bad Im aint readin’ all that!
Just passing by to quote this sick wall of text and look as tough as you!

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Bro, don’t quote it. That took a full minute to scroll through.

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I have tried to answer this very question in the original post, which I think you have read:

So let me put it differently:

I think we can all agree the ranking system is the most “productive” when it puts players in the correct order of skill, and lets them rank up/rank down in accordance with their development or degeneration as a player. I’m saying that algorithmically balanced (handicapped) matchmaking is bad for that function because it ignores rank while also making it a certainty that not all of the best players or all of the worst players will have a chance to win or lose the match together (i.e., gain or lose rank). The gain and loss of rank is guaranteed to be distributed evenly between players despite their innate skill and also because of their MMR.

I believe that in ranked competition, matchmaking should be 100% rank-based, random, and solo queue only. To form a match, the Matchmaker takes 12 players from the queue with the same or nearly the same SR score. MMR and PBSR do not exist in this system. Teams are assigned randomly, SR gains/losses from the outcome of the match are equal between teams, flat between players, and nearly the same amount from match to match. I think we can all agree that is a fair system. The system we have is an abomination, a Frankenstein’s monster.

I appreciate you for keeping this topic in your head for all these years, and I’m sorry for the burden we share.

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I’m actually not sure we can agree on this, but maybe it’s just the way you phrased it. I would agree that a ranking system should produce both accurate ranks and movement in those ranks, sure. I’m not sure if we would agree on what level of accuracy is reasonable, though.

So, it’s true that sometimes the best player in a match will lose, just like it’s true that the best quarterback will lose. I’m not sure what alternate system would prevent this, though. For most of us, this isn’t a big deal, it’s just how life works sometimes?

This is placed in a way that makes me think it’s meant as a different phrasing of the sentence before it, but I honestly can’t make any sense of the “because of their MMR” part. And again, for most of us, this is just how life works sometimes, isn’t it? Even the bench players get a Super Bowl ring, don’t they?

Solo queue one we actually fully agree upon. Don’t blame the MM for that though, there’d be hell to pay with most players if they prevented you from playing with friends. This isn’t that serious of a game, either, that I really worry about it. Technically though, you’re right and I think most people would agree. Groups mess with it and always have. This is neither revelation nor in dispute, it’s merely a priority disagreement. (And also a hint that maybe you shouldn’t be taking “ranked competition in Overwatch” quite as seriously as you do.)

Re: Ranked Based, I think one issue we have talking to each other is that while we both agree that the system can do a pretty good job of determining your skills relative to other players, you don’t make the second mental step and realize that is the same as ranking, i.e. ranking is the result of determining your skills relative to other players. So it becomes hard to talk to you, because you say that the MM is ranking you accurately and putting you in matches based on rank, but that you would like the matches to be rank based. I can even accept your idea that SR and MMR are not the same and still be confused, because you seem to accept that MMR can, in fact, rank you. I’m really not sure how you get to this conclusion. Maybe you can find where I’m wrong and explain. Do you simply want a stronger guarantee that your SR and MMR don’t normally wildly diverge?

Also, I take a bit of issue that matchmaking CAN be 100% rank based and random. Those are mutually exclusive. I see what you’re getting at, but setting a range of SR and then assigning teams randomly will create expected wins odds that vary from 50% unless you happen to have all the same SR. So you have to decide what range you find acceptable, but you have your initial problem that the best player can lose. In fact, this should make it worse, not better, because now you’re putting your best player in a disadvantaged position. You’re doing exactly what you say is currently happening, but this time it is actually by design rather than by chance and precision.

As for the rest, while I can appreciate that is one way to do it, it seems like your attachment to having flat SR gains for all players is, well, a bit overzealous. I can appreciate that what you want would make a fair system, but I think you’re missing out on some benefits that PBSR and MMR provide, without any real clear gains in return other than a simpler system that most people actually like less in practice. Especially when you consider how “serious” this ranking is meant to be. Sounds like you really just want it to be super super serious, but that’s just, like, your opinion man. :slight_smile: And you’re entitled to it, sure, but the impression you give in this post makes people think very different things, you know. People think you mean that the system is preventing them from ranking up, where from what I can tell, you just don’t think the system is as good as it can be.

It also does nothing to solve your issue that sometimes the best player in the match will lose. Which, again, I don’t really see as a problem but you do, so I’d think that you’d either have a solution for that or just accept it as an inevitability of team play like the rest of us do.

I also don’t see how this would be more productive than they way they currently do it. So, I agree that what you want would basically work, I’m failing to see how it’s any better than what we currently have (or had, remember I haven’t looked at this for 4 years.)

I’m left wondering what your actual problem with the current system is. What you say is the problem would indicate that you want stronger PBSR (so that the strongest player always “wins”) and to be matched purely on MMR (so that the games are 100% rank based), but then you say that you want to get rid of both completely?

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Oh, and this portion. Why do you think this is true? If we’re talking hypothetically here, why wouldn’t a system that works like this (my version) or this (taleswappers version) work better to produce an accurate ranking?

Not that OW necessarily functions like either of these, but, hypothetically speaking, what makes your “6 of the strongest players are on one team and all 6 of the weakest players are on the other” a better way of determining “the correct order of skill, and lets them rank up/rank down”?

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Let’s remember that matches have 12 players. The outcome of the match reflects on all of them, to varying degrees and in relation to things like what role they are playing.

But that is a false equivalency where you are talking about a sport with established teams who compete in a league tournament. That’s completely different from Overwatch’s competitive design of players being ranked individual but being allowed to compete with all combinations and composition of group types…which is whack in itself.

You are underestimating the importance of this detail, and here’s why:

Team and group play is a huge part of Overwatch’s appeal. How they are handled in ranked competition is massively important, insofar as the game is important. And I think that everything people do is important, especially when it’s tens of millions of people collectively spending billions of hours of their time and energy. Activision/Blizzard and Microsoft clearly think it’s important, or they wouldn’t have gone about this enterprise. Consumers should pay attention to what they are doing, because much of it is nefarious.

You are talking about two different processes taking place in different systems. MMR and SR and different things. Stop trying to conflate them as the same thing.

Yes we have to talk more about this, because clearly it’s a point of disagreement. I do not believe but I know that SR and MMR “diverge” because I have seen in happen in my own Overwatch career. In the time that I played, my SR ranged from Platinum all the way to low Bronze and back several times. I observed that my career trajectory was random, despite sure knowledge that I had improved at the game over time.

Anyway, that is only the first-hand experience that made me suspicious. It is the words of Scott Mercer, Jeff Kaplan, and other Blizzard representatives which confirm my assertions.

SR and MMR are completely related yet completely different things. Comparing them is not apples to apples. It’s like comparing an apple to the tree it grew from.

MMR does not rank anyone. Rank is not its function, that is the function of SR. But the function of MMR is relative to the function of SR. MMR’s frame of reference is constantly changing because a player’s competition is always changing.

SR and MMR cannot diverge because they are not at all the same thing. MMR is generated in the short term, dynamic and constantly changing. SR is generated in the long term and is relatively static. PBSR relates to both systems, and we can get into that whenever you want.

They are not mutually exclusive.

The range would be tiny, nothing like the 1000+ SR window that exists today. That is something to keep in mind. Queue times would practically instantaneous as well.

Vary from 50% as predicted by whom, or by what? And yes we are talking about matches where everyone is practically the same rank/SR. This would be easy to arrange with solo queue participation rules. Groups are the main reason why matchmaking is so convoluted.

The acceptable range, when you think about it, should be very small. If we suppose that the new system we are describing would numerically resemble the existing SR system, then you might say the acceptable range is around 1-5 points of SR.

That is something that can happen naturally, not a “problem” that I have stated.

That’s wrong. The best player is typically disadvantaged by the current system, however.

We are talking about randomized teams, so how can you say this?

You have no idea, you’re just assuming that. A simpler system would be much better and is 100% necessary for ranked competition.

You either out of touch with the experience of Overwatch players, or you are being dishonest about it. Anyone who’s played competitive online games should be familiar with how invested players get in the outcome of their matches, and how seriously they take the practice of learning these games strategies. That goes double in a ranked environment like Competitive Play.

When the outcome of matches is effectively randomized with algorithmic handicapping, that confuses people about everything from battlefield tactics to character meta and their own development as players. Algorithmic handicapping is toxic to the gaming public, especially when it is done covertly in ranked competition.

The system does prevent players (mostly experienced and skilled players) from ranking up. By the same token, it prevents other players (mostly inexperienced and unskilled players) from ranking down. The MMR system is very good at what it does. I do not want the system improved, I want it abolished.

Where are you getting this from? I did not say this.

No, PBSR should not exist. Did you not just agree that SR/rank gain/loss should be flat per match? That is what we’re talking about.

No, and again MMR is not rank. The function of rank belongs to SR.

Correct, and again I did not say that “I want stronger PBSR” or anything like that. PBSR and MMR should not exist. Matchmaking should be solo queue and based purely on rank (SR).

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You -could- have small PBSR component on a per-match basis that has nothing to do with anchor stats or rank averages broken by alts and rigging and 6 years of scott’s no-reset laddering ™. The small PBSR, properly done in context with ladder redux, would help move people to where they belong faster and rigging-free.

As for MMR yes ofc it needs to go, all SBMM, EOMM, and DDA needs to go. Imagine having hitboxes change on you mid-game based on your real-time performance - that’s where they’re planning to take the industry → consumers are the product and their rights be damned. Typical for the ATVI and MSFT playbooks.

With your system of just grabbing 12 people of the same SR, the game is just equally randomized, is it not?

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Can you remind me, when was Chess ELO reset the last time?

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Chess ELO doesn’t invade your data (mmr). It doesn’t care about how you play only if you win/lose against others who win/lose. And it doesn’t rig the lobby it finds players of similar SR (in this case chess elo) and ships. It’s also a solo queue experience.

Not comparable based on those facts.

i dont see any math…

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after win streaks it puts you into matches that are insanely hard to carry and I jumped the boat as soon as I noticed like having multiple afk… drunks or launching ult’s off the map on purpose just “because” “CHILLLL” like legit you will run into the worst side of the community after you win games and that’s what makes me at least leave… I’m sure it does for others as well especially since blizzard is one of the worst companies right now about policies and keeping their community, leaderboards and stuff clean and nice… including how the community acts.

I want to keep playing hard games or run into harder players on the enemy team I don’t want a half afk team refusing to work together because the MMR decided since I won too many now I get them for trying too hard. Back on the first forums they actually had talked more openly about the match maker and how it work but then retracted their statement and deleted the threads from back then.

math isn’t limited to numbers. it’s an area of knowledge, reasoning, logic, discourse, structures and relations, etc.

maybe you’re thinking about arithmetic?