About 5v5, Jeff Kaplan wrote an interesting post

The issue with qp classic is that a lot of people stack in that mode for easy arcade wins. Most of my games are up against relatively traditional 222 comps and our healer is Sombra.

Maybe TOO much chaos.

You could even take that anecdotal evidence and apply it in OW2. What if your tank doesn’t pick Rein?

Even better yet: will Rein be the only tank in OW2? What is the tank balance going to look like? Because 1-3-2 was a whole mess by itself.

1 Like

Well, unless they completely hit em up, Piggie Smalls is still going to be my tank of choice. I imagine it will play out similarly to when I am paired with a Ball that doesn’t know how to play Ball. And that experience is not fun, fam. Like pigs to the slaughter…

Safe to say, balance should be the #1 question for OW2.

1 Like

Like 1st problem of overwatch right now is queue times, you win’t fix that by just releasing new heroes. In a few months it will happen again, in every tier of play there is a huge lack of tank players.

We need new players, current system we have is not sustainable. Sure 2-2-2 6vs6 is great for veterans, but it’s not very welcoming for new players. Open Queue 6vs6 might be another answer, but same thing applies. Teams are too reliant on tanks, you can’t do anything if you don’t have to them to make space. Tanks synergies are problematic and are the main point of creating annoying metas

1 Like

Except your example is nonsense and your premise is sort of nonsense as well and I will detail very easily why.

There being 400 less health is irrelevant, who cares that a DPS can do 400 damage (or most tanks tbh). I do not understand why this is relevant or even sensible.

What matters is that now about 1/5-1/4 of the damage in the game is now gone. Ultimate charge just took a major hit with the tank passive (and less tanks) meaning less ultimates in the game. Overall killing capacity just went WAY down because there is one less person to apply pressure. Overall things happening in the game went down. All of these spell simpler not more chaotic. Who cares that a DPS can do 400 damage to something that doesnt exist? The problem is that now contesting players is now a much more annoying deal.

There is no universe where the game is more chaotic. It simply does not exist. The only way for that to happen is if they went 6v6 and decided on 1-3-2 because then you have the same number of players with a reduction in a Tank but you dont have that. You simply have one less person in a game creating less to happen.

False on two fronts. New players does not solve anything. Queue time issues, as much as they can be an issue as PP exists and fixes a lot of it, largely come down to a ratio problem. OW could have 1 million people queueing for comp or 100k people queueing for comp and the queue times would largely be the same if the ratios are the same. Furthermore, generally OW is one of the most new-player friendly FPS games of all the ones on the market, which surprises me.

You are right about the power of Tanks. They are the carry role. However, this is not so much true until you reach around Diamond and they start actually being Tanks and not just fat DPS. Furthermore, one of the other problems is that you simply do not have a lot of tanks right now (8 in total) so it is rather difficult to sell the idea of people who prefer to pick certain heroes having a much smaller Tank pool. Also, one of the other biggest problems regarding tanking, is that unlike DPS, where you generally have about 8-9 viable DPS, most of the time there are 3-4 viable Tanks which means you are very pigeon holed if you want to play Tank and if you prefer other Tanks you just dont play (fortunately most of the non meta DPS are either closer in power to the meta ones or very very unpopular such as Bastion).

Looking back at this it makes sense that they ended up wanting to try 1-2-2.
One less dps removes some of the extra pressure on the solo tank and on the supports.


When Jeff hesitates, Aaron does stuff.

OW playerbase isn’t exactly booming or anything right now. I 100% disagree, if the game has enough players it can fix so many stuff. We 100% need more players to overwatch, they bring more content and all the positive stuff.

Priority passes are a small fix and grand scheme of things it doesn’t even show up. It’s rather a nice to have thing than a proper fix. Ratios don’t matter that much, if you just have enough players. There is so many positives of having a high population of players, that they massively always outweigh the negative parts. I CAN’T STRESS THIS ENOUGH WE NEED MORE PLAYERS!!

I think falls into the thing that playing tank is just not enjoyable for most people, it’s a concept that isn’t ow related at all. Every single MMORPG has a tank problem, nobody really wants to be the damage sponge or one who takes the aggro and has lots of responsibilities.

I think 5vs5 fixes a lot of this. Less players on the field means that every player has a higher carry potential, tank isn’t the one who needs to always do everything in a teamfight etc. With 1 tank, the strengths of each tank can be magnified without the fear of creating horrifying tank synergies.

1 Like

Your premise on new players is not relevant. The game gaining or losing players, and yes it is likely losing them right now due to not having content for over a year, is not relevant to queue times. I can prove this with Math very easily.

You can disagree with me on my belief but given that I can show it to be true using Math (and considering its a simple ratio Math problem it would not even require that much work or be that complex).

Ratios are EVERYTHING. Player count is IRRELEVANT. I will keep my explanation to a middle school level and try to keep my explanation purely analytical and avoid anything too in depth (I do not know how much Math you have had or how long since you have taken Math so I will avoid jumping into high level data analysis).

We are going to use easy numbers here so lets have the DPS count be 50% of the playerbase with Support being 30% and Tank being 20%. Furthermore, lets also explain on the backend what is happening when you queue up (a lot of games like to show this but OW doesnt). You are basically being put in a queue, picture a line at a grocery store with other people who play your role (and presumably at about your SR as well). What this means in practice, given our numbers, is that, provided there are a bare minimum number of players playing in the correct SR, that a Tank queue will be instant and that Supports and DPS will have to wait . What they are waiting for is for the DPS and Supports and Supports ahead of them in line to find a game.

Now here is where I am hoping not to lose you. The NUMBER of people ahead of you in line would fluctuate depending on the playerbase, BUT the ratio itself means that your queue times would remain static.

For an example, let us assume there are 1000 players queueing up per minute who are eligible to be in your game. If you queued as DPS after 5 minutes of building this model, how long would it take you to find a game? By our metrics there are 500 DPS queueing up per minute, 300 Supports and 200 tanks. This means that after 1 minute 100 games of OW have been formed and that 100 Supports and 300 DPS are waiting to find a game. So when we add in the minute 2 people we will have 200 Tanks, 400 Support and 800 DPS and after the games are made 200S, 600D and then with minute 3 you have 200T, 500S, 1100DPS with the matchmaker making another 100 games. If we continue filtering out until minute 5, when you queue up, you would have 200Tanks, 700Support, 2000 DPS. Now to save you some time if you were the first DPS to queue (aka player 2001) you would take a little over 10 minutes to find a game.

Now if we repeat this process with 10x the players at your SR queueing (aka making it 10,000) eligible players and you queue at minute 5 (There is a reason I am waiting 5 minutes to start that I could go into if you want but suffice to say it is important to let the system build itself before taking a measurement and there is a reason I am not letting it go too far as well). If I were to go through the same explanation you would just have to add a 0 to all the numbers and what would happen…you would still have a game after 10 minutes. The wait time DID NOT CHANGE.

RATIOS are ALL that matter when this sort of system. The only places where population are an issue are sub 1k SR and 4100+ SR as those populations have almost had queue time issues.

OW could use an infusion of new players but that will not affect queue times unless those new players want to play an entirely different role than the existing players want to.

1 Like

Because that 400 damage can be healed by a healer if it were a tank. A healer can only heal so much burst damage on a DPS. Then you have characters like Hanzo, Widow and Doom

i mean the post doesnt sound all that different from the discussion we’re having now

the big difference now (and the mistake that i think people keep making) is that - for as similar as 122 and 132 are on paper…theyre not the same thing…and when they tested 122 its quite possible they liked it more than 132…

jeff very much painted a picture of it being something they couldve done but ultimately decided not to do in favor of 222…but its very clear given the direction theyre now going with that they never dismissed the idea…and with some tweaking it looks as though they feel comfortable enough to actually implement it going forward

1 Like

Im kinda surprised, considering 5s was a MAJOR thing in world of Warcraft.

5s for PVP Arena.

5s for Dungeon / Instances.


1 Like

it does suck that they are removing two potential players (yea tanks) from a mode anyways when it was always 12 players. kinda seems like a step backwards instead of forward. yes i think they are mainly doing it for “faster” queue times for dps players but if that was the case why did you go “role” mode in the first place. should have nerfed the core problems a long time ago.

still everyone makes mistakes even developers/game designers and i love overwatch to death so i am willing to try it out and im a patient person. who knows i may like it more than 2-2-2

You can when the main purpose of that 1 character is to reduce and negate things.

OW team engagement with forums was practically zero. When it happened it was mostly Jeff. I was saying having engagement is good, but I think we’re gonna continue to get almost zero - maybe literally zero now that Jeff has left.

It was a really good post.

Desperation and also the assumption that their only reducing the number of tank slots available by half

I think this is the crucial part. This is why a lot of off-tanks hate it, and some support players like me. I like the enabling and teamplay, and it feels like a massive f*** you from the devs cause this is the one game I’ve played that’s given me the feeling of being a team to that level.