100% forced losing streaks

Competitive Discussion
183

The matchmaker tries everything to bring together players of equal skill. However, we do not know whether he is either too tolerant or far too strict with the assessment of skill levels.

In any case, far too often he fails to create a really fair match or at least fair teams. we have been discussing the reasons for years.

my approach is that the mmr calculation is not applicable to smurfs and throwers because they never show their true skill level constantly. of course, they avoid a correct assessment and distort the overall picture. they are effectively outplaying the matchmaker.

however, very inconsistent players can provoke the same reaction. you end up in completely chaotic matches in which you represent either the best player - or the worst. with corresponding “matching” team mates.

the matchmaker does not determine the result, but he puts the teams together very consciously and as closely as possible based on the information available. it‘s totally common that overachievers get grouped together with underperformers. For example, there are almost always premade groups of the same size in the teams. it can definitely be referred to as a kind of handicapping - with best intentions but crappy results.

However, the matchmaker cannot foresee human error, tilting, perfect teamplay and fraud. Nevertheless, it would definitely be possible to also incorporate negative statistics for the matchmaking: left matches, reports and complaints, fluctuations in mmr and consistency …

and with such factors, matches could be rigged intentionally. for example: if i know that a player cancels 30% of his games, i could put him in the same team with an absolute high-flyer (smurf? booster?).

there would be a 30% probability that the „good player“ would be directly impacted by the leaver. he then would have to play twice as well and efficiently to compensate for the leaver. and THAT would definetly count as rigging.

I don‘t really think that the matchmaker‘s a.i. is that complex or sinister. the ability to predict and provoke such behaviors and outcomes goes way beyond a reasonable amount of effort (and costs)

and also „real“ smurfs typically win easily.

the matchmaker is just sloppy and values a FAST matchmaking over a FAIR matchmaking.

edit: the „silence“ from the devs could be easily explained with occams razor: The matchmaker really isn‘t a masterpiece for precognition and mental manipulation, but instead totally baseline and actually quite stupid :rofl:

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184

Genuine question here, why is it that only <2500 players believe their matches are “rigged”?

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185

I think it has to do with the SR range your teammates and opponents get picked out of. It’s 1000 SR for the lower tiers, so if you are a gold player 2200 or something, your teammates can be 1100 … and that’s quite some difference. And inbetween there all the new players get also dropped in, so you probably get a really bad experience just because of that wide range.

Mixing lower SR and higher SR people in a team to get an average SR that is the same as that of the opponent team is NOT creating equal teams or a good game experience. It most probably results in a total trainwreck for one side (like losing point A with 7 minutes left) because 1 or 2 players in one team dominate the whole match, the other 4 or 5 low SR players in that team don’t weight in at all.

On higher tiers people get picked from a smaller SR range, so those players are more similar in play experience… maybe that’s better for the result and how you experience the match.

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186

Plat and below are the only ranks where Performance based SR happens. So Diamond and above you could be dead weight and still gain/lose the same amount as others. At least that’s how i understand it.

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I’m under 2k on 2/3 roles, and I think the folks that believe the matchmaker is rigged are crazy, I’ve been asking the same question you just did.

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188

I agree, most unbalanced games is cause by players who manipulate they rank. And matchmaker cant now their true skill.

I would disagree here, i am not saying it cant happen, but its not common. Its basicly dice roll on quality if team mates as matchmaker use only MMR to pace you in games. He doesnt see difference in under performing 2300 player vs over performing MMR player before the match starts.

There is also plenty of variables. If two 2300 players face each other and one is junk snd other pharah main, the pharah main is in big advantage if second dps is bad hitscan player. Variables like this can amplify the i balance between teams.

I would not say stupid. Its probably very complex creation but works in very basic way.

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189

The matches down here are chaos. New players gets inserted at 2250 (or was it 2350?) wich leads to alot of “forced losses” (read as "very, very low win chance matches). Imagine having a person on your team that has 25 levels of total experience in OW while the enemy has levels 300+ Not unwinnable, as such, but definitely a 5.1 vs 6…

Dia pluss are shielded from the chaos because the noobs dont rank up to dia - they drop taking us with them that match. Highly frustrating when you try your best to win only to get a “matchmaker loss” for no reason.

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190

for all your talk of conspiracy theories Zax you sure spout some spesific things about matchmaking that I can’t find any dev references too…

When i dropped to low silver earlier this year from high gold dps I still played with mostly silvers. How is the matchmaker going to balance my match? My skill is still high gold. If the matchmaker gave me average low silver teammates and enemies the win chance would be far from 50/50. I was 7-800 SR from my season high.

I just don’t understand how you can’t see that handicaping HAVE to happen in a scenario like this for “balance” to be achieved my the MM…

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191

3 of 5 of my QP matches have around 4 people in the team (usually both sides) of level 1 to 50. 2250 as a starting point for new players is complete nonsense. Yeah they do not stick there for long, sure, I’ll probably see none of them ever again. But there are constantly new players coming in, so I see all those dude who use their gun the wrong way around.

And now a question: what do you think why new players complain about toxicity? If you meet them in 30 of 50 of your matches … and they mess up all those games …

I am really sick of an Orisa sitting at the entrance of Junkertown spawn on attack, shooting out, not moving. Dude, it’s attack. Sitting there shooting at the tank blocking the payload does do NOTHING. And if you say something … “you’re toxic”. No, I just tell you that you maybe should do something different. Apparently the perception level has gone down so much that as soon as you open your mouth (or type in chat) and it’s not “gg”, you are toxic.

“Can someone please switch to a hitscan for the pharah?” - “Don’t tell me what to do, you are toxic.”
“Can we have a junk for the Bastion?” - “f*** off, I play what I want.”

That’s the dialogs at that level. The S*FUs I got are countless.

PS: I am level 992 or something… silver frame, level 92, 4 stars.

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192

Like what for example? Usualy i will say that its my theory or Its how i believe it works. I am always for discussing it as i like to know the truth. I have done some experiments myself in past because its what i like to do, that gives me better understanding how matchmaking works.

I would like to test something new this week also and i will be looking for players to participate so you might help :slight_smile:

How else it should be balanced? Your SR and MMR dropped to silver do you played with silvers. I play currently in alt in silver and i am placed with silver and agaisnt silver too.

Your skill obviously werent high gold because you dropped to silver. Not in those matches where you played.

And i dont understand why people see handicapping in it. Just look at your case, you see dropping to silver and playing to silver as handicapping, because you believe that your skill was high gold. I see players who played worse as high gold and thats how you dropped to silver having silver mmr at that time. Then being placed in silver which is completely normal.

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193

When you climb, your MMR goes up, when you lose games, your MMR will go down. Thats how it works. With exception of individual games and in case of players who smurf. Because sometimes you play do good, that your MMR wont almost go down even if you lose.

194

Well, new players are not like that most of the time, new players have actualy hard life to be honest as general player base hate them. I once pretended to be new player on my alt. And others were toxic to me and telling me not to play comp and stuff like that. It wasnt very nice experience.

When I have new players in my games, i try to not be like that. But honestly its sometimes hard when i see soneone obviously playing with skill lower by 1000 than gold. Generaly speaking these new players are trying to enjoy new game and they are open to suggestions and hero switching if you will tell them. They just need some guidance do you have to tell them what to do and Micro manage them a little bit.

What you talked about are usualy not new players, but people on low level alts.

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195

Ok, that might be true. :frowning:

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196

This is one of your unsubstantiated claims. Does MMR “go up” really? I’ve told you before, you don’t know what MMR is. And I don’t either. I know about skill though and your assumption that I “lose 700SR of skill” is redicilous. Get real, this is just clutching at straws so you don’t have to admit defeat.

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another made up statistics that you just assume is true because it fits your biased narrative. I see you Zax - up to your old tricks again.

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No, its not. Its actualy not my claim, devs said so. Its actualy claim of “Jeff Kaplan” or “Scott mercer”, he said this:

As each player plays games, their matchmaking rating goes up or down depending on if they win or lose.

Just because you admit that you dont know, it doesnt mean I dont either. I know a lot if stuff about it, definitely more than majority of players. But I dont know everything about it course, i realize that.

Defeated, never :slight_smile: ? I wasnt defeated and you failed with saying its my claim btw, read above :slight_smile:

Look i know its not easy to listen that your skill dropped. But it happens, not everyone is super consistent. If game know/think that your actual skill at that time was higher, you would not play with silvers. You would still queue with golds. If you dropped 500 sr, your mmr wont magicaly stay still high gold. It will drop too. Unless you lost that much by leaving games.

I am curious what would convince you. Lets say i will make experiment and leave 20 games on single role. Lets say I start at 2300 and i leave 20 games. Can you tell me what do you think my SR and my MMR would be.

And if I drop 20*50 SR. Will i be placed with golds or with bronze players on account with 1300 SR?

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199

Come on… First of all, i dont have any statistics for that. Its my observation and experience. Would you not agree that new players are more open to suggestions from experienced players? More than players who play on alt playing certain hero because that was reason to create alt in the first place?

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Ah yes i forgot that - they’ve also said,years ago, that it includes more than that and that it can include otehr things. From Scotts post or whatever it was :

" As a minor factor, we also do evaluate how well you played the heroes you used in a match. The comparison is largely based on historical data of people playing a specific hero (not medals, not pure damage done)"

My skill is the same, more or less, from day to day. Slightly increasing I’d say overall, though I’m 40 so I expect my physical self to degrade (though it’s gotten way better last 3 months due to medicine. I’m popping heads now consistently on Mccree…).
My skill NEVER EVER drops 1.5 tiers. And you’d have to be realy convincing to make me believe it even can, and that it somehow stayed a bit higher on one of my alt accounts.

See? defeated. Wich skill was my true skill my main or my alt? played the same heroes…Did it drop or stay the same?

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201

You flip a coin every time you play, there’s no guarantee of ever winning any game. I as a masters player can lose in plat. Does that mean I’m a plat? Hell no. It just means that that ONE game, I lost.

You have to look at your skill rating over ???s of games, not ?s. If I queue up now on my 3200 account, I could potentially lose 10 games in a row and derank to Plat. It’s very unlikely but it COULD happen. I might play badly, I might have a couple throwers, couple smurfs on the enemy team. It’s a dice roll and that’s not Blizzard’s fault, that’s the community. And it’s not just Overwatch’s community, that’s competitive gaming in general.

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202

Yes they did, but it doesnt make their main statement i quoted any less true. It seems that you still have problem to accept that statement tho because:

Why did you drop to silver than? I am 36,5 myself too and i can tell you that if i dont play frequently, my skill drops fast and i am rusty as hell.

Well i dont have to, you have that statement about it from devs, if you lose games, you lose MMR also. Maybe you didnt lose you skill tho. Maybe you did, maybe you didnt who knows, that doesnt mean you you didnt lose MMR. It was said that losing games will lower MMR so you have to accept that.

Lets stop with who is defeated lol.

Your true skill is your true skill, nobody knows it except you and MMR is just trying to be closest to it. You can have very bad luck losing a lot if games without losing skill. It will lower your MMR but not the skill, thats why you will climb back after. Its just how it is.

Multiple accounts can have different results short term. I had alt where i climbed to plat without losing single game and alt where it took 4x more time. I played the same way, same heroes. But after some time both accounts will eventualy end up in same place.

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