because it’s boring. you put it up, and it stays there. with zarya, she has to pay attention to the whole battlefield to protect teammates. with barrier tanks, it’s less so because you just hold the blue box up.
It’s still an ability. Also why is a barrier with so much control Boeing?
Current impact is pretty good.
But I’d say impact from a tank feels better when its helping to prevent/enable a kill. Taking damage and mitigating it. I call it the square up effect. Its the “no, you move” feeling.
It can be firepower, it can be kills, it can be setting up or securing them. It can even just be, reliably applying pressure. But the main thing that hurts my enjoyment as a tank, is that sometimes there is an enemy im just useless to fight (phara or echo as any tank) and if my healers aren’t on point, I cannot function.
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because once it’s up, there’s not really a reward other than not dying. zarya’s well designed in this respect, if she has a good bubble, she gains more damage and more ult charge. with sigma, orisa, rein, it’s static. you don’t see the impact unless the barrier is truly CLUTCH.
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Huh, that’s an interesting angle.
While firepower is obvious.
Setting up kills, and clutch denying kills with Peel is interesting.
Good thinking.
Although that kinda points towards “one barrier tank per team”, since otherwise there would be no reason to use offtanks.
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If any role has too much influence you run the risk of the other roles not mattering at all. You could reach a point of dps/supports just spectating and the tanks winning the match regardless of what the rest of their team did so long as they outplay the other teams tanks.
Obviously I’m using an extreme end of the scale for ease of discussion but I’m sure you get the point.
There is a very fine line to tread here.
Off tanks can kinda satisfy that selfish want to CC and setup plays whereas maybe shields and mains can focus on making space and team protection? Dunno.
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Yeah, but I feel like some people only talk about extremes.
Which is kind of avoiding almost the entire range of middleground.
To the point that it’s less an actual discussion, and more a strawman discussion.
I feel like any and each of the barrier tanks still feel plenty fun to play, save perhaps a Reinhardt around whom one’s team cannot coordinate.
Honestly, I have to wonder if a slight Rein shield HP nerf wouldn’t help his state of play in messy games — since that’d force teams to slightly more play around him than they each get their own pocket barrier — especially if he gets some faint fluidity/QoL buffs to compensate (like reverting the additional Primary Fire delay cost on Firestrike, and slightly increasing barrier activation speed near the center of the shield, e.g. just enough to flick-cast to protect himself and only himself).
That’s my point.
Just because he’s strong doesn’t mean he’s fun. His reliance falls too much on his team.
Imo, I think tanks need more independence. Safe zones/barriers are fine, but make them passive, like Orisa, Sigma, Winston, Brigitte, Baptiste, or Zarya, while the tank is free to do their own think elsewhere.
Rein’s only defensive ability is his barrier, which makes him move slower. If a Rein charges in, he’ll get kills or die. Those are his only options. If a
D.va/Hog/Winston/Hammond/Sigma charges in, they also have tools they can use to retreat and reset. They have tools that enable aggression by allowing a backtrack when inopportune.
Rein does not have this safety net in his kit, and while that does lend itself to a healthy skill curve, I don’t think it offers itself to dynamic gameplay.
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I think tanks are the most impactful role in the game. I also think dps is as well.
But in very different ways.
A bad tank increases chances of losing a lot more than a bad dps does.
A good tank increases your chances of winning less than a good dps.
I mean, that’s a very brief but shallow view of barrier management.
I don’t deny that ‘hold the blue box up 99% of the time’ seems to be what barrier tanks do, but there is way more to managing barrier than just that. You can’t hold it up indefinitely, because once it breaks it takes a long time to get it back.
Each tank also needs to manage and use their barrier differently as they worked differently due to cooldowns and mechanics.
The problem we have now, is Rein’s Barrier >>> Every other tank’s barrier, and Rein don’t really have much toys/tools to play with his barrier in place.
I don’t agree with it being a strawman and more pointing out the potential for it to occur with relatively small changes. Tanks only lack influence and solo play potential in lower ranks. This is due to how difficult it is to actually understand the role.
However in high ranks tanks are already often the playmakers. Changes that are enough for low ranks would risk turning tanks into unstoppable juggernauts in high ranks. It’s a genuine concern and can’t just be dismissed as strawman.
Thats not to say there shouldn’t be changes. Just that caution is needed.
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I think gameplay wise, Rein’s barrier is least enjoyable because all other tanks can do things while they’re blocking enemy fire.
Rein’s only defensive ability ironically also makes him weaker. He can’t push out damage or mobility while defending himself.
Yeah, but at the extreme end of the design a good BarrierTank is enabling the DPS/OffTanks/Healers to go do fun stuff (I.e. Kills)
While you just focus on not dying, blocking/redirecting enemy damage, and standing in the right locations.
But is that enough?
Enough to make BarrierTank popular enough to fix queue times.
Since I’m suspecting “doing the boring stuff, so your team can go do fun stuff” is the problem.
Fun is subjective
Main tanks, unending boredom
Damage fears queue times
Yes. I think making gameplay more proactive and less reliant on team action will help. I hate waiting for my team to get picks… having actions I can take constantly to play better is more fun than waiting. That’s why tanks that shoot with barriers are more fun than Rein.
Also, tanks need to be balanced better. Right now the most important “skill” a tank player can have is being skillful at picking Reinhardt and not picking other tanks. That needs to die.
No. They’re already far and away the most important person on the team. Doesn’t help.
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yes barriertanks can more popular
but can GreyFalcon better english? not sure i am
I usually trim down the size of titles to fit the width of mobile forums.
Makes them read like newspaper headlines sometimes.
I would say self-sustain and personal impact is one of the exact reasons why Sigma is (was?) so fun for many people, me included. (And before someone screams “u only liked him cuz he was overtuned!”, no I still like him because I legitimately enjoy his playstyle; it’s dynamic and keeps things interesting). The over reliance on teammates is one aspect which made me hate Rein because I always felt like I’m chained to this rectangle and need to pray my teammates are able to take advantage and kill something. So very reliant on heals as well because Rein is basically a sitting duck unless he gets close while moves like charge are very risky if your team is not watching over you.
Unfortunately, the way the game is balanced has made Rein basically the obligatory tank but I still absolutely hate playing him. I don’t care how “meta” he is, he just feels way too… how would I say it, “passive enabler” for me to enjoy. Doesn’t help that he’s basically his own best counter because of the nature of Shatter. Like, Sigma could counter it but then they had to give him that clunky cooldown so… no.
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