Varian's nerfs seem too harsh


#32

I don’t remember anyone saying that, nor does it defeat the points that I’ve made and I don’t see any grand masters, masters, or diamond players talk badly of Varian.


#33

He has a significantly lower playrate than thrall, malthael, and Leo, who you talked bad about but are actually some of the most powerful offlaners in the game


#34

At this point I think Varian just straight up needs a rework. Accept that multiclass didn’t work and make him either a melee assassin or bruiser. Varian’s my favourite Warcraft character and I enjoy his playstyle, but he just doesn’t feel that good and it’s hard to buff/nerf him without risking making a different role too strong or weak.


#35

Since when does this has ever speak on a heroes power? Again, you’re not defeating any points that I’ve brought up.

Some heroes have low play rates. It doesn’t mean those heroes are bad.

Did I talk about bad about them? I don’t think I did. I just said, Varian brings more utility.

Okay and? I never made the claim that Varian is a strong solo laner. So uh?

Can you actually disrupt my points instead of making up things I’ve never said. lol.


#36

You can get your AOE apply it at level 1 now, and if resets trigger CD.

I’ve been loving stukov even more since that change, my next person to grind to get good at :smiley:


#37

Look Varian cannot solo the core at level 1.

He is not the Core Killer at level 1.

Stop saying such things!

/Sarcasm


#38

No it is -24 damage a second.
I have no idea how you got -45.
(HKQ impacts base damage, which means the doubling of attack by Col smash and the -20% attack penalty of twin blades apply to it. Although even without that it would be -30 DPS, not -45).

Anyhow:
Old level 10: 88 base damage + 60 HKQ + 62 Heroic Strike = 210
New level 10: 88 based damage +48 HKQ + 62 Heroic Strike = 198

Or a ~5.5% damage reduction.

At level 20:
Old: 91 heroic strike, 130 base attack, 60 HKQ= 281 damage per attack
New: 91+130+48 = 269 damage per attack
~4.5% less damage.

Given Varian’s winrate is in a fine spot, and this was his strongest talent level 1… this seemingly makes him slightly under performing.

Except it also buffed some talents—which will probably make up some of that gap.

So yeah, I don’t see the issue.

It’s a pretty small difference unless you decide to ignore his trait.

If anything this impacts Colossus Smash more, as it only get about 35 damage per attack from trait.

Going from:
280+150+34 (464)
To 434, or a 7.5% decrease at level 20.

190+150+23 = 363
To now 333, or a ~8% decrease.

Add in that 30 damage becomes an extra 7.5 damage when you apply the Col Smash rebuff…

Yeah, it hurts Col Smash (and taunt, although I don’t think taunt varian worries about that damage nearly as much) worse than twin blades.


#39

I’ve been saying this for a while. Blizzard has tried and failed at the Multi-Class thing everytime they’ve tried it.

Other “Multiclass” heroes include:

  • Tyrande
  • Tassadar
  • Uther
  • Kharazim

What HAS worked is allowing heroes to do “Sub-classes” — that is to say, be primary at something and work in talents to do something else. I think Healers with a sub-assassin class have worked out best so far.

In Varian’s case, he has a sub-class in Tanking via Twin Blades and a primary DPS route in Smash.

I would honestly LOVE to see a pure Sword and Board hero take Taunt away from Varian and be designed similar to Varian with more focus on defense.

However, that being said, I think the only way “Multiclass” is going to ever work is when Blizzard decides to allow you to pick between a class and have a COMPLETELY different talent tree based upon your pick. The aforementioned heroes would still highly benefit from this strategy.

I think it would be really cool if Blizzard made a point to say “Each year we’re releasing ONE and only ONE Multiclass hero” — I think that would build some hype.

Related-ish — I think the same basic issue stops Cho’gal from being in a great spot. It would be neat for Blizzard to expand this by releasing one double hero every year as a Blizzcon “thing” (not a Blizzcon exclusive, but similar to how Cho’gal was originally released). It would certainly help to build more community. For a few weeks, Cho’gal was in such a fun spot — but that died off as soon as the excitement ended.


#40

Holly Necro Batman…

I think HKQ was fine beforehand. Varian wasn’t IMO OP. He could be coutered quite easily.
But he was still quite good in the right hands and team comp.
In terms of the recent nerf, you had to focus on the quest to get it early otherwise you wouldn’t get in until the end. With the nerf I think they need to reduce the requirements, smaller buff but sooner.


#41

8 days is not a Necro, not even close. It’s just a bump.

Overpowered is more effective against heroes with fast attack speed, such as Tracer, Tychus, ect. It is extremely amusing to kill a full-health Tracer in 1.5 seconds as any of the 3 builds with Overpower. Solid, but niche talent imo.

Both of the lvl 1 and lvl 7 Lion’s Fang talents are terrible - Lion’s Roar itself is fairly weak outside of lane sustain or the slow. Personally, I would make the both of them baseline into Lion’s Fang, and not even bother to replace the talents.

Victory Rush does need a bit of a boost. Second Wind already works well enough as a laning sustain option. I would make it much more akin to the WoW Second Wind - Comes up only on a hero takedown, and makes Varian’s next AA heal him for, say, 1200 or something that pretty much tops him off. This would make it competive with Second Wind - Second Wind is the sustain option with a significant boost at 50% health (50% leech is strong for all 3 builds!), and Victory Rush is the win-more pick. Note that Second Wind only needs 2-3 AAs sub-50% for any of the builds to produce more healing then current Victory Rush. This would make it the prefered pick for Taunt (Since he heals to full after a Taunt pretty much), and a solid option for Smash.

Personally, I would move lvl 4 to lvl 1


#42

I’m saving that so I can quote it later :wink:

Totally agree. Although I find it quite strong on infernal shrines. The only time I pick it up.


#43

I believe a bump should be considered a necro if its an one month of inactivity, there’s always an exception for necros when the content that was added is refreshing and on point with thread.


#44

If I recall, for THIS forum, a necro is any post older then 3-6 months.


#45

Varian was a little strong baseline (post 4) to balance out that he has no ult. Now, he has no trade off for not having an ult, especially with tb.
He is weak/on par with everyone else but without a "ace up my sleeve"move. I don’t like it. Why pick varian now ever?


#46

varian is fine… he needed that… no one could challenge him…


#47

Varian was a tad too powerful after completing King’s Quest but waaaaaaaay underpowered level 1-7 and perhaps even arguably 1-10, especially if he completed King’s Quest after 10.

The mana nerf hurt so hard its now forcing Varian out of fights in very profound ways. That coupled with the KIng’s Quest nerf probably drags him down to a C tier if not a D tier hero now.

Keep in mind that Second Wind relies on damage dealt for Varian’s sustain. Second Wind is almost always the appropriate talent. Victory Rush can be very good on certain maps and it has its place, but Lion Heart just never pencils out and that’s what ultimately makes Lion’s Maw not practical in most cases.

Perhaps if Lion’s Maw was wider so it could hit more consistently or have the “magnetic physics” to attach life Anduin’s Chastise does; perhaps it would be better.


#48

Except anyone with a blind, or teams with any reasonable level of focus fire


#49

They said specialists and multiclass were a mistake. They first nerfed specialists, thrn argued they are weak and need to be redesigned. So they did.

Now they are doing the same to Varian. With the nerf to quest, CS and TB are essentially dead. Taunt was already a subpar build when it comes to tanking, and the quest nerf killed its bruser variation. The mana nerf hit so hard that his E build is now completely useless and his E 10 isn’t even worth considering (not that it was very useful before but it was still a niche pick in specific situations - which makes the nerf rven more stunning).

In 2 months time blizzard will come and announce that Varian is too weak and will be redesigned, probably into another generic assasin, same way they did to specialists.


#50

I’ve always been a fan of the multiclass idea, but I also feel like Blizzard designed them very poorly out of the gate.

Keep in mind Blizzard tried MULTIPLE “Multiclass” heroes. We had Tyrande, Tassadar and Uther right out of the gate followed by Kharazim the next year.

Each stab at this was just BAD. It doesn’t mean it can’t work, but I certainly think the ship has REALLY sailed on this topic for this game a long time ago. There are ways they could try to fix this down the road, but I doubt Blizzard will go that route making the claim “It’s too much work”. Heck, they’ve said as much in the most recent AMA.

I’ve frankly said from the beginning that squeezing a Tank build into Varian was too problematic. I think we all honestly want a REAL WoW Warrior Tank without all these weird design methodology to “make it work”.

Its far past time they should make Varian into two different heroes. Keep the DPS aspects in the current hero and introduce a real Prot Warrior.


#51

Imo it is the CS build that really doesn’t fit it. I’d be more content if they rework prot into a bruiser.

So they have prot: bruiser with CC but lower damage
Fury: bruiser with higher damage and mobility but less Cc.