Varian's nerfs seem too harsh

General Discussion
1

I do think Varian was too strong before the nerfs, but the nerfs hurt waaay too much.

Varian virtually had almost no mana problems before, so some adjust (or finally giving him rage) was something that needed to be addressed; however, now he can barely stay in a fight without being mana tapped.

The nerf to King’s Quest (lvl 01) is too harsh as well, in particular, because the other options at that level just aren’t good in practice and I don’t think this is something that can be adjusted by numbers. I’ve wondered for a long time if King’s Quest shouldn’t just be made a base line quest.

Overpower (lvl 01) is something that might need to find a new place in the talent tree. It really is a sub optimal pick until you’ve decided which spec you are going for. I’m wondering if folding it into Shieldwall (lvl 10) might not be a bad idea. Most times when you should be using shield wall, shouldn’t be when you’re going Twin Blades (lvl 04), but is a strong pickup for Taunt (lvl 04) or Smash (lvl 04).

Folding Lion’s Maw (lvl 01) and Lion’s Heart (lvl 07) together might not be a bad idea either, but some serious adjustments might need to be made to both skills.

Additionally, Varian’s survivability before 7 is still something very problematic. Most games I have 1-3 deaths before 7 and 1-2 deaths after 7; that’s because almost every other hero out there over powers Varian by a large margin before level 4 and by a notable margin until 7. Especially with Objectives being pushed down to starting around level 4, I think this remains a big problem for Varian.

Most of my above suggestions basically kill off the first tier of talents.

Varian would feel a whole bunch better if he had his level 7 talents as his level 1 picks with POSSIBLY some quest additions tossed in on at least Second Wind and whatever a potential combined Lion’s Maw talent might look like.

I think shifting his level 13 talents into level 7 and his level 16 talents into level 13 would make Varian feel much closer in line to other heroes, though some balance tweaks might need to happen.

Considering the abysmal pick rate of Glory to the Alliance (lvl 20) and Demoralizing Shout (lvl 20) but how good they actually are, it might be neat to see these skills nerfed a tad and moved into level 16 with another multi-purpose skill thrown in there too ---- perhaps add Battle Shout at level 16 to give Varian some interesting options.

Keep in mind, while I would advocate for ALL of these changes, I’m not advocating for cut and pasted versions of all the skills. If everything would happen, a good balance pass would also need to happen.

11 Likes
2

i liked your ideas about Lion’s Maw&7 and Overpower/Shield Wall combining

Moving talents 16–>13, 13–>7 does pose some interesting ideas but shieldbreaker is pretty strong for 7. Agree his flags seem like a 13 talent for some reason (I’m not a varian player so speaking entirely from aesthetic)

I think moving some of his 7s to his 1s would be interesting, just spitballing. HKQ could get its requirements lowered and moved up the tree or something. 1 takedown, 15 globes, 40 autos or something, and buff the damage to higher than before and pit it against shieldbreaker/MS.

who knows

3

I do agree that moving some of his 13s to 7 would be a bit overkill without tuning.

Shield Breaker, in particular would be too powerful in its current form at 7. I would probably propose removing the activated portion of the ability and maintain the extra damage to shields.

It might be interesting if they moved Juggernaut back up to 16 where it was originally. Additionally it could be added to the level 10 charge talent if the Battle Shout idea sounds awesome at 16. It would probably need to be balanced a bit though, but lets face it, very few actually TAKE that talent; this might be a good enticement for it.

If we wanted to keep the theme of level 7 having mostly mostly abilities that are focused around mitigation-esque utilities, Disarm might be an interesting one to throw into the mix.

7 is probably a better rank for Mortal Strike. The Heroes who REALLY focus on that sort of talent tend to get it around 7.

4

I think Varian would actually need to graduate from his mindless AA talents and have his abilities factored in more.
I am not sure if the nerf is too harsh or not but i don’t dislike the intent behind it.

5

Varian is pretty much an awful hero, nerfing him was pretty silly.

Extremely easy to counter, weak solo laning, outclassed by other bruisers and tanks

Realistically his issue is that he has an almost non-existent skill input, so they can’t make him that much better. Almost all his impact is just charging someone then auto attacking

6

He could definitely use a few talents tweaks. Right now, he’s pretty all or nothing, with little room inbetween. One idea I always liked was to roll some ability buffs into each of his three specs. Shield would get a parry ability (like shieldwall or overpower), TB would get charge, and Smash would get a lion fang. That would help deliniate the specs a little more (especially since he’s not really “multiclass” anymore), though he’d probably need some new talents to fit those changes.

7

I could get behind this concept. One thing that would be nice is to make Heroic Strike an activated ability that’s recharged a little differently based on each of the specs. There are too many heroes who have the gimmic “X triggers after hitting a hero Y times”. It certainly would be a welcomed update to do something like that.

I absolutely disagree that he’s an awful hero, but he has problems. Worse yet, most people who play him irregularly don’t pick optimized talents for his build.

Shield wall, for instance, gets WAAAAAAAAY over used. Shield Breaker and Mortal Strike rarely get picked at all. They are very esoteric in their usage, but they are way overpowered when used at the right places.

8

It’s basically his saving grace as a hero. His kit is incredibly bland and weak. His Q especially feels like a filler ability that could be replaced by basically anything

According to hotslogs, mortal strike is by far the most picked talent in the tier.

Overall I would say Varian is in a similar boat with Li Li and Brightwing, that being “massively overplayed heroes who kinda suck”

3 Likes
9

Hmm, I guess I was looking at winrates, not pick rates

I disagree both from experience and from his numbers.

Warbringer has an abysmal pickrate, but a far better win rate. His what gives him the ability to really peel or fence for allies or at objectives. It’s also what enables him to solo bosses easily.

Shieldwall is viewed as necessary just because it grants Protected. However, deflecting auto-attacks from base Parry is already plenty strong for a lot of situations.

I only take Shieldwall when I’m wary of a threat like Kael or Butcher that my team’s comp doesn’t have the potential to take down quickly enough. That’s very seldom; especially when I’m going DPS.

10

Nah. Overpower is a fine talent, the issue is high kings quest gave you more meaningful damage going taint than overpower did.

I think this is just fine. Especially as Lion’s talent at level 1 got buffed. And it was never terrible. Unlike it’s level 7 healing one…

Overpower isn’t that good with Smash actually, as Kings damage gets doubled, and overpower only impacts the trait damage.

But maybe I should try it before I knock it!

As I hinted at earlier, I don’t see the level one lion’s fang talent being problematic. It was okay to be used before buff, should be better now.

Both more damage bonus, and faster completion.

Level 7… yeah, this talent is pretty bad. It does’t work with Taunt well, Twin Blades well, or Col Smash well. It is just an inferior talent, based on personal experience and hotslogs.

That’s fine, imo. Some characters have a “power spike” as the game starts (Zagara), others don’t get a power spike until late game.

Having a early-mid game power spike for Varian seems perfectly fine. You just have to play safe.

No.

High Kings quest belongs at level 1.
And Lion Fang’s quest would get much worse if it was on level 7.

I would not mind a rearranging of his talents, but I think you would need to completely rework talents to do so.

Would break him.

If you nerfed his precious level 13 talents before moving them, this should be fine.

Banners were 13 long ago, and swapped with his current level 13 tier to let these talents come online sooner.

Banners returning earlier to the game sounds good to me!

Or just buff or change them slightly. If his level 20 was just ult upgrades it would be an atrocious talent tier.

100%, awesome, alleviates many concerns I have over them… although I think the level of change would pretty much require a full rework pass at Varian again. And he feels to me in a good spot. Just buff his Lion’s Fang heal at level 7.

11

How do you counter him? You pick a counter to one spec and he can just choose another.
I picked Varian early, so you’ll… pick blinds? CS. Antiburst? Winblades. Or maybe I’ll ditch these two and go Taunt so I have a low cd CC. Good luck against that.

On Overpower being bad on Winblades: if you’re against quick AA Heroes (Lúcio, Tracer, Zarya, Tass, Tychus, etc), you get a lot of extra, buffed Heroic Strikes from it, so having a quicker AA yourself is good.

1 Like
12

I’d like to see them buff his base damage to account for the loss from Kings quest, and then add a small duration boost to parry if you pick his level one parry talent (at least 0.25, maybe more). Only other change I would make is increasing his charge range by 1 if you go charge at 10.

Otherwise, I do think he was in a pretty decent place and don’t mind the concept of what they were trying to change on him.

13

Winblades varian is a simplefied illidan.
Varian (taunt) is my most played hero, but slows are his biggest treat.
Not roots or stuns but just say varian chill out dude

14

Goodbye to Varians Tanking and deleting entire teams

15

Varian’s kit should be the poster child of how to never design a character in any genre of game.

16

Blinds beats both his damage specs because most of his damage comes from those autos.

17

If you pick CS, and they blind you, they blinded you, but your target still has -25 armor.

18

https://www.heroescounters.com/hero/varian

This counters list has my endorsement. Slows, roots, DoTs, Poly, displacements wreck Varian.

  • You charge someone and get Stretch Armstrong’d across the map.
  • You HYAAAAH someone and can’t use any abilities in Lurking Arm.
  • Stukov detonates a Pustule on you and you basically can’t move.
  • You charge, get Poly’d and bursted down.
  • Arthas laughs at Twinblades, and is too tanky to get blown up.
  • Parry does nothing against Malthael’s Mark, and if he picks Last Rites you’re basically forced into Shield Wall.
  • Charge Lunara = HAHAhaHA! + slow and giant DoT on you.
  • Xul is a Varian counter in a can. Attack speed slow, Bone Armor burst protection, Bone Prison root, Skeletal Mages constant slow.

Plenty of options here.

19

Yes, but he isn’t going to kill them. Meaning that you just turned Varian into an armor shred bot who doesn’t do anything else besides slow a little.

20

Slows, polys and displacements hurt almost everyone, but Varian has his own slow and movespeed, so in my experience, I don’t really care about slows that much.
DoT is not that problematic since he has sustained selfheals.
Stukov’s W is pretty narrow and not that fast, and the detonate has a 15 sed cd, so I don’t fear that.
Arthas is not that tanky against burst, he feels that debuff.
And “forced into Shield Wall”? Unless the enemy is almost entirely heavy AA hitters, Shield Wall will be always the better option.

So most of those things you listed are pretty rare to happen, or just exaggerated.

Blinds have durations, you won’t have that much a of a problem and be “just an armor debuffer”, and you’ll still be a hard to kill threat.

Also, this is for everyone: counters are really good and sounds awesome on paper, but ppl can counter their counters with clever tactics and waiting for the right time.