Ah I assumed most bruisers can at 4. I think you’re a little too worried about the smallest details, which isn’t bad… but I don’t think the extra time taking a camp at level 2 matters that much in reality. He can solo it really early and he doesn’t require an extra hero to be there with him. That hero can be doing something else more useful.
And like I said, most times this early in the game, you’ll hearth anyway, so how much health you have when finished with the camp doesn’t really matter unless you get invaded, but any hero who gets invaded this early will probably die if they’re trying to solo the camp anyway.
I mean yeah, but if you kill someone, you’re already at an advantage…
And since he does % damage, all enemies die to his trait and Q at the same rate. No matter the health pool size.
I usually have 50%+ hp after finishing the Bruiser camp, and then I use the Fountain, which I otherwise rarely do, since I need no mana to clear lanes and don’t take more dmg than I can sustain.
If I’m on any map where there’s a bruiser camp, laning against Malth, and he dissapears for more than 10 seconds. I go straight to the camp. Taking a camp from an Artanis is tough, Yrel can push you off, and D.Va can self destruct. But Malthael can’t ever defend a camp he started. He has to let you take it. When I play Malthael, sometimes I’ll try to go for bruisers when my team isn’t macroing. But if someone shows up I just give them the camp.
But you don’t know if you’ll get invaded or not. Even if you start at full health you still can’t contest it. Ideally, someone should soak your lane while you’re taking the camp. But in SL I wouldn’t risk it.
Should have specified early game. Since they can respawn and join their team, if I can get a last rites kill before they come back, I guarantee we outnumber them.
At this early in the game anyone getting invaded by a full health enemy is probably going to lose the camp, but they also are out of position and rotations can easily make that invasion not worth it.
Well yes I agree. When our bruiser goes to take a camp I always try to rotate to cover the lane. And I always ask someone to cover the lane while I take the camp. If there is a person constantly in lane I’ll just let someone else take the camp while I keep them occupied. If my team doesn’t, I usually don’t leave the lane since they’ll invade me when they see I am absent.
But this is the case for almost any hero and just because you lose a camp because someone invaded you doesn’t make the hero bad. If Jaina or Valla get invaded they’d lose the camp, but it doesn’t mean they’re bad at taking camps. They both can. And relatively fast if they aren’t worried about conserving mana.
Like I said, many other bruisers will be harder to steal from.
If you’re doing the camp by yourself, it means your team is dumb and no one is covering your lane, (That’s why your enemy can afford to come contest you) They soaked a wave that you lost, so they have nothing to lose by checking on the camp. They are not out of position in that scenario. Once their wave is clear, your camp is exactly where they need to be. If your team mates won’t cover the lane for you, they won’t assist you on the camp either.
But Neither of them are bruisers. Solo laners have tools to fend for themselves. A D.Va for example won’t loose much health taking the camp, and she has self destruct and a second health bar to defend it. Hogger is too fast, Artanis can win the trade after taking the camp, Gazlowe doesn’t take much damage taking it, and I don’t know how good Chen is at taking bruiser, but he’s always dangerous to duel. Sonya is 50/50%
Some bruisers are decent at defending a camp, some are bad at it. Malthael is one of the bad ones, like Dehaka, Leo, or Xul.
(Though on Valla, I’m pretty sure she dies if she tries to solo that camp at 4. My opinion is that she IS bad at taking it)
Well that’s more of your teams fault. Like I said. Usually if my team doesn’t help me I just stay in lane and forget about the camp.
But they’re probably half health when you go to invade. Anyone who is protecting a camp is already at a disadvantage because of the health they’ve lost taking it, especially this early. If Malthael came to any of them and invaded, they’d have a hard time taking him off them as well.
Besides, this discussion is about Leoric vs Malthael, not about Malthael vs every other bruiser.
All this early game bruiser camp talk is making me wonder if Probius can take a bruiser camp at level 4, since I enjoy playing him like a solo laner but always feel awkward when I know the guy I’m laning against is taking their bruiser camp. He can solo bruiser camps later in the game, but at level 4? Probably not, since even with his turret he just doesn’t have the health to stay in the camp long enough, but I might boot up Try mode and give it a shot anyways.
If you’re diligent and finish up Gather Minerals and get Shield Capacitor, it shouldn’t be a problem, but that requires specific talents. That shouldn’t necessarily be the goal either though, because with minion support, he can clear a bruiser camp super fast regardless.
Probius can solo lane, but it depends a lot on the matchup. Heroes that can guarantee chip damage will just bully you out of the lane because of your lack of sustain. And you should never hesitate to rotate or swap if you have a bad matchup.
But he can do quite well against a fair amount of bruisers if you dodge their skill shots. Because his AOE is so amazing, any hero that wants to pursue you will just get slowly pelted by your cannon and take the brunt of minion damage until they’re cleared. A Malthael who can’t get a reaper’s mark on you will basically be helpless, and even if he does, he’s going to take a good chunk of damage that will be difficult to disengage.
h ttps://www.heroesprofile.com/Global/Matchups/?hero=Malthael&timeframe_type=major&timeframe=2.55&role=Bruiser&game_type=sl&map=Braxis+Holdout&mirror=Exclude
(remove space from after h_ttps:)
this is currently malth win rate on braxis hold out, bruisers filtered.
since i am a rexxar main, and am his top counter, i never have a problem putting down malthael…
I stated in my reply why they’re not at a disadvantage.
I was replying to one of your points.
Funny, Varian has the 3rd highest win rate against him, but I consistently beat him. Same with Ragnaros and Yrel.
I like going only by players who are Lvl 10 and up on the heroes. It eliminates weirdos who picked a char they never played and lose a matchup they should win.
These results matchup with my experiences. Yrel should always lose. And Rag is now below 50%
I’m saying the person taking the camp is at a disadvantage, not the person invading.
Here’s where you brought up different bruisers. It was a reply to me where all I was saying was that no hero can take camp and leave full health at level 4. Even less bruisers can take them at 1 min, but Malthael can, obviously not full health but still.
I wasn’t talking about how hard it is to invade Artanis or Dva. You’re the one who brought that up and in a discussion mainly about Leoric and Malthael, it’s not really relevant here.
Ok, you Malthael, you come up to a D.Va finishing a camp. She’ll still have half her mech’s life left, you have to stand on the point so you’ll be taking damage from the bonus zone of her AA, that can’t be avoided. When her Mech health gets low, she’ll Self destruct, and fire at you while she does. D.Va dealss 896 AA damage in the time it takes for her mech to explode. The mech explosion itself deals a bit over half of Malthael’s health (1287)
You take about 2183 damage from explosion and AA. Malthael has 2041 health at Lvl 4. How do you survive?
It doesn’t matter if you leave the camp at full health. What matters is if you know you can reasonably defend it, or capture it fast enough that you won’t get interrupted. Then you can go for it. Malthael can’t reasonably be expected to defend the camp he’s taking. So I don’t reccomend soloing it unless you know your opponent is dumb.
(Though objectively the discussion was just about learning Malthael)
I wouldn’t invade vs a Dva. And she’s still at a disadvantage if she doesn’t have full energy or whatever her pink bar is. If she has it, I wouldn’t even try. Malthael’s inability to invade Dva at a camp doesn’t mean he’s bad at taking them.
You worry a little too much on the smaller details that don’t really matter. I don’t know if you prefer Leoric based on bias, but just because he doesn’t fit into your play style doesn’t make him a bad hero. He has excellent waveclear, good chase, self sustain, can defend and take camps well (especially later in the game), and he’s decent at teamfights if he can mark enemies. Leoric is probably better at team fights but he isn’t better than Malthael at macro.
That’s what your argument was at the beginning.
If an enemy invades while you’re 75% health its hard to defend it. So why should that be a metric at whether or not someone is good at taking camps?
Talking about how well and enemy invades a camp and how well they are at taking camps are two completely separate things. Some heroes are better at invading and others aren’t. Malthael isn’t. So I don’t know why he would, when he could soak two lanes at that point if needed since the solo laner he’s against is taking the camp.
Also, every hero has a risk in taking a camp and leaving their lane empty. The enemy team will either invade, or they’ll just push. You take camps as Malthael when the team is occupied, or someone covers your lane to prevent them from invading, since he’s not good at protecting against most invasions. You just have to play him right and time things well.
I said that he’s a good camp taker based on the fact that he doesn’t lose too much health and can do it from level 1. I also said he’s great at soaking, because he really is. He’s also great at double soaking as well. He’s decent in some team fights but that depends on the enemy team really. Those are reasons you pick him. Not for invading a camp whenever Dva decides to go and take it.
However what you’re worried about is how much health he has after taking the camp, when other bruisers are more worse off and he’ll most likely tap the fountain or hearth anyway. Or that if he’s invaded he has to give the camp, or that other heroes can defend camps better than he can.
This is what I mean. If you don’t want to discuss anything with me, that’s fine. But don’t be using these minor details as reasons a hero is good or bad.
dumb question: Why would you ever play Malth OR Leo when you could play Dehaka or Hogger instead? Literally only time I can think those two would be better is IF opponents are playing Deathwing.
Dehaka typically isn’t great on two lane maps or point control, because he has a lot of bad matchups. He usually makes up for that with his Global, but if the map doesn’t give value to using Z, there’s little point using him.
