Tassadar Rework - A Case Study

and when you get into a game and tassadar is on the enemy team on top of the screen!
You choose your spell damage survival talent on, say, Li Ming.

Oh, wait, it’s the older support tassadar.

The idea is good, but cannot be implemented well unless there is a proper body to dump the old Tassadar on.

This would be a cluster and cause mass player confusion.

I hope that tassadar was deleted because they want to use his support kit for another protoss hero.

If it was to cater to assassins players i would be very upset and scared for lots of heroes.

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If you have the capacity to understand what mode Deathwing is in, you’ll realize it isn’t as confusing as you believe it to be.

What are you trying to accomplish here actually? Shutting down an idea before a proper discussion can be had? I’ve seen you post a lot on the forums too, intelligent enough to give counterpoints, but never enough to actually give constructive criticism.

A cynical crew member aboard a sinking ship, just laughing at efforts to stop the ship from sinking, belittling the efforts of others without lifting a finger yourself. Each post the same old story, no it can’t be done, no it’s too confusing.

If you care for the game, you’d be on board for anything that could make the game more interesting.

If you don’t care and have accepted the cruel fate this game is headed for, then why are you online pushing other people down. I can quote myself and say:

Why are you debating over ingredients in a cake when the cake shop is going out of business? If the devs had followed your train of thought and devised ways so that the community wouldn’t be “confused” they wouldn’t have reworked heroes 3-4 times. So I don’t think “mass player confusion” is a huge worry here.

What mode Deathwing is in at any given time DOES NOT influence initial talent choices and foster confusion later in the game.

Just the initial talent choices is already adding confusion which is a layer on top of what Deathwing does.

Followed later by the fact that current live Tassadar and rework PTR Tassadar… have abilities that look the same that do different things/interact with talents differently.

To things as simple as:
Rework Tassadar storm deals less DoT initially, and ramps up to it’s maximum bonus against a target slower.

Force Wall functions differently on each Tassadar
Archon functions differently on each Tassadar.
Their basic attacks are similar but do different things at the end of the day.

You failing to understand anything that I say which is constructive and shows that something could work doesn’t mean I am not.

I happen, for better or worse, to have more insight on how long it takes to do “basic things” and what level of player confusion the HotS design team wants. Because I do report bugs directly to QA and interact with QA. Along with a dozen or two other people.

learning to comprehend english might be a good starting point?
Or are you ignoring what I write?

  1. The idea is good
  2. the idea cannot be implemented as you suggest it
  3. there is a way to implement it, I suspect it won’t happen because of the time it would involve.

I guess I didn’t make it clear, but I would love to see something like this. I will miss the old Tassadar once the rework goes live. I hope they make a hero that is similar–or even find a way to make the idea of “old Tassadar existing” work.

There is also the problem that all the abilities Tassadar had and are coded are directly linked into the rework, except for his shield. But, that is my understanding of how the system works having seen lots of what Spazzo does, as well as listening to a few people who have tested modifying abilities in try mode.

So it would take a while to recode them. Which should be relatively fast, as presumably they can “copy-paste” a lot. I don’t know about linking them up to another hero.

I’m on board for anything which makes the game more interesting that does not suck up resources like a black hole.

to quote a conversation (someone else in group and someone from HotS QA):

A simple numbers patch would require a bunch of QA time and put a lot of strain on them. Imagine what just trying to throw together systems that don’t exist in the game, and QA them, and make sure they fit the UI would take?

I don’t always break out quotes, i rarely due. Because some are years old, or were from a platform that isn’t supported anymore because the program started before battle.net groups existed.

But I have a decent grasp of how much time and different people doing things would actually take. I do think the core idea–of having the old Tassadar’s kit exist on a hero–is viable. But probably not within this year. And not in the form you suggest it.

It has been brought up multiple times when I thought someone was buggy and suggested a fix. In QA over the years. Or thinking something would be cool and running it by QA as viable/not viable before writing something more detailed about it.

Yes, I suppose making a new hero from scratch to put what was Tassadar in uses up less resources.

It’s true, I haven’t posted as much or spent as much time as you have in the forums, so I’m not as primed or conditioned towards the game as you are. Well-trained by devs who are no longer here to exercise their continued failed ideas.

But whatever it is, I don’t think this will go anywhere anymore so I’m leaving it here in your hands, dear sir.

Okay, I think Planar is right, but I think there’s something that could be put a different way that might help clarify the ‘it’s too confusing’ argument just a little better…

When you see Tracer in this game, you know generally what to expect from that character. She’s going to be quick, she’ll be picking off retreating stragglers, and she has a very handy escape in her rewind. When you see Morales, you know that she’s going to be a single-target healer with a grenade that can push to help peel or secure a kill. Even in Deathwing’s case, despite what form he’s in, you are not going to see a huge shift like going from damage-dealing to healing an ally. That’s what those characters do, and there’s only the nuances of the particular builds that refine EXACTLY what they are doing.

These are distinct characters, and developers work to build very distinct builds and also go to great lengths to keep recognizable silhouettes and movements to these characters so they are easy to recognize and associate with a particular ability set. This proposal, while honestly really interesting, is still going against that trend and now players have to doubt that same instinct the developers have spent the entire history of the game to reinforce.

I hope you (and I) are wrong and it [a way for Tassadar’s current live kit to exist on a hero] does go somewhere, for what it is worth.

I don’t think the devs can make AD/DC heroes that any player below Diamond can understand.

^^This, and as someone who mained Tassadar when he was solo support with a AA team and Swizz army knife Tassadar, it was more about player understanding than the Tassadar himself.

So few knew when to draft Tassadar, what he could do or enable as a team. Even when you could full support a mostly AA team as Tassadar, below Diamond he was considered a “throw” or “troll” pick because players didn’t know what he could actually do.

The devs were upfront about reworking him into being a DPS mage. I knew that would mean damage with the loss of his support Q shield abilities and a loss of some utility. I blame this more on the player than the devs, it seems anything more complex is beyond understanding of the average player. Remember the average player is Diamond and below.

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I solo healed with Tassadar even when there weren’t many AAs. The great thing about shields is they have a disproportionate effect on lower HP heroes from being bursted and allow your softies to play much more aggressively. People would yell at me for picking him in mage heavy teams, but those enemy Zeratuls trying to burst mages that no longer died suddenly made the Zeratul a liability rather than a strength in those matchups.

Tass had a very high skill floor which is what made him difficult for sub diamond players because his shield build was the only viable build. Shielding by the very nature of it being lower CD and simultaneously needing to be cycled on all targets yet proactive on new incoming required a higher skill threshold.

However, that would have been fine if lower skilled players could play him as NOT support. The problem is Blizzard in an attempt to make his support capabilities viable over nerfed his damage capabilities which was entirely unnecessary because the damage was talent gated. It made no sense to nerf his psi storm and archon talents because they were often directly competing with his support talents. If they just made his damage talents better, lower skilled players would incorrectly believe he wasn’t a healer but wouldn’t have completely gimped the team by going damage, and players who liked supporting and could handle the more complexity in shielding and battle control could do that. Everyone would have won.

I don’t see Multiclass as a failure, but Blizzard definitely gave up on it.

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Because QM.
Multi class is a failure in QM/because QM.

Varian did/does always function fine in draft modes as a multiclass hero.

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It’s just QM. And as someone who did ranked and primarily played QM, Varian was annoying sometimes IF the player sucked at the spec they chose, but for the most part, was fine. If someone didn’t want to pick protection, but could still peel with charge once in awhile, instead of just tunnel visioning, I honestly didn’t care.

I think that’s a problem with player expectations and prejudices of roles, more so than the actual hero’s capabilities.

Preface: how this plays in my mind is Tass has two kits to choose from during hero selection (before the game even starts). Whatever kit you choose you’re stuck with for the rest of them game.

You have players in other mobas, immediately knowing the item builds you are going for just by looking at your starting items and lane. And you want to have me believe that hots players can’t differentiate whether the Tass they’re going up against is using the support kit or assassin kit?

If you’re drafting and the enemy has a Fenix and a Jaina, then they pick Tass, it’s very likely it’s support Tass. If you see they’ve picked supports and tanks and proceeds to pick Tass, you know it would be Assassin Tass.

In Lane, the moment you see a Plasma Shield go up you’ll immediately know it’s a Support Tass, and likewise you see a Force Wall, you’ll know it’s Assassin Tass. The mystery is very easily gone at the start of the game.

Blizzard is one of those companies that babies it’s players, but if you look at other companies with a flourishing competitive scene, you’ll see players are capable of memorizing the kits of hundreds of heroes.

If you go to mmos, you’ll see players can memorize over hundreds of skills belonging to over 20 different classes, which is why I don’t believe the “it’s too confusing argument”, because I’ve seen the playerbase in other games completely manage to memorize hundreds of different items and builds as well.

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Okay, my point went right by, but I guess I can be a little more direct.

Imagine a brawl where you chose your character, and while you chose the abilities, traits, and talents… the character model changes. You charge out as Genji and you’re sporting Arthas’ model. Jaina is casting Morales’ healing beam from her staff. It’s really gonna screw with you because you’re going to avoid Jaina because she’s typically a burst mage who can delete HP, and you’re gonna get surprised when Arthas suddenly surges forward into the middle of a crowd. Each and every character has a very unique and recognizable skeleton that we can see at a glance and be able to process on an instinctual level.

And this is inevitably where I’m countered with the ‘but it’s public knowledge and you choose it in draft!’ argument that’s part of your preface… But there’s a huge flaw there.

If it’s a totally unique and distinct character in terms of drafting, why re-use assets. Why risk the confusion of having TWO Tassadar characters on the same team, or even the healer on one side and the assassin on the other (is it too soon to suggest ‘Tassassin’ as the nickname for the new version?)… Why not just make it a whole new character entirely? Why re-use a name, why re-use assets, when you could just go the extra step and put together a new character?

But if it’s the same character you pick in draft? You might counter, and that’s where things get really dangerous. Why wouldn’t he be the most-banned character in draft? I think it’s safe to assume that there would be two solid builds for any given hero on average, but that’s for a single character with a single class… Now you have the chance to get a pick AND a default ban on the enemy team from having access to the counterpart. What’s more is the unprecedented chance that you have up to four options on how to build the character.

The idea could be programmed yes, but the subtle nuances that aren’t directly programmed in, the stuff that we visually process on an instinctual level, and the shades of strategy that are present in any kind of game of this complexity makes it such that, really, the skillset needs to be moved to another hero.

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something something it’s easy to just make it so you choose with Tassadar you want to play.

(Thank you for laying out my opinion/argument more clearly btw)

I think they just don’t understand what you’re describing. Not as in they don’t get the problem, but they believe it is not a problem, because people can adapt.

Because it takes up more time and resources to build a new hero from the ground up?

I’m thinking of suggesting ways for them to add more features to the game without them having them work overtime.

Side note: They didn’t even have time to animate Qhira talking and you expect them to build a new hero for old tass?

They have a small team now, with their funding significantly reduced. That’s why it’s easier to reuse assets and hero models (and that’s why I’m suggesting it)

I thank that any heroes have unstoppable for these reworks! I can also can have rework for it?

The change of Tassadar is fine, I do not know why so much disagreement, they simply sincere his role, and the game put him as a support but with a potential that allowed him to do much more damage than many dps themselves and also shield allies.

I think it’s a fun concept, he just feels clunky and slow to use, definitely needs some tuning.

But I think having both versions in the game at the same time has so much potential and saves so much time (and resources) compared to the downsides, it should be considered as well.

The way I’m approaching it comes from a place that’s trying to accommodate both the people who liked old tass and the ones that want the change, we have a way to please both parties, why not? Amirite?

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You know what I would like to see? All heroes with a Path of Exile talent tree.
At all levels you choose your path.

This is what heroes of the storm should have been. Too much money in esport…

Let tassardar be whatever he want to be! He want to tank, let him tank with infinite shields, even if he is bad at it.

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I literally explained this in my initial post

You make it sound so easy with extra step when in reality, that extra step would consist of:

  1. New artwork
  2. New hero model
  3. New animations
  4. New voice acting
  5. New special effects
  6. New sound effects
  7. And so on

These are just what I’ve thought of at the top of my head.

And based on older AMAs, a hero took at least 9 months to make (this was back when they had full funding), so no, it isn’t just an “extra step”, it’s a whole lot of work. Something I thought was incredibly obvious and players are aware of after that announcement post.

I know Heroes is made by a AAA game company, but it’s operating like an indie game company now. Our expectations and suggestions should be with that in mind. The huge reduction in cost for time and resources makes the argument “it’s confusing” almost too minuscule to care about compared to the benefits.

Maybe then we don’t have to wait too long for another hero to be announced.