Hello, I’d like to ask for some changes particularly to how stealth works for melee assassins. I main Valeera and I love the character. The problem with her is when Deep Shadows goes away I can get revealed by Kel’Thizad farting and the gusto of wind reveals me. This fundamentally should be changed since the stealth option was really nerfed. I’d make it so a higher damage threshold must be met before they can be revealed or a DIRECT damaging ability. An example would be diablo’s fire stomp (W) would no longer reveal valeera but Jaina’s Frost bolt (Q) or Cone of Cold (E) would.
Reveals in this game have always been that way. If an enemy can catch you that way, you as stealthy still made the mistake. It could be that you were predictable, or created the problem in which you were forced to run in the first place (overextended etc).
It also should NOT require damage on that, since some talents/abilities are designed to reveal areas (including stealthies in them) in the first place.
And otherwise i can already imagine a lot of abilities getting 1 damage, just to circumvent that issue again.
Adding an even bigger treshold is even worse. AA heroes usualy have to use their ability to reveal, but that ability might not exceed the treshold, the AA hero now cant do anything. This would be such a big nerf towards many AA heroes, and such a big buff towards stealth, it just doesnt balance out.
I guess you only play valeera as stealthy, and complain based on that. But your way of solving the issue doesnt work and breaks many things.
Valeera is a hero that needs a rework anyway. And thats when she can be fixed.
7 Likes
Your synopsis on my character isnt even really a good one. It wouldnt break the game anymore than murky being unkillable seeing as he can keep his egg behind towers and in safe corners and the same goes with abathur. It’s notabout getting caught out it’s about balance. They robbed stealth characters from hoe they used to be so the fix is obvious. Secondly imagine blaming me or any other melee stealth assassin saying it’s their fault for not keeping track of every little pixel from every little ability cast by everyone in the middle of a team fight. That’s absurd even for your standards or clear lack there of.
You are using a character that is known to have issues, to state that a certain mechanic has issues.
- Nova has no issues regarding being revealed, for her its the kit itself that provides little use (a ranged stealthy though)
- Zeratul is difficult, but can dish out very dangerous values of damage, and has quite a number of escapes
- Samuro has his stealth as getaway mechanic, and its actualy quite reliable for doing so.
And yet the butcher, who doesnt have stealth, is again having issues.
The issue you describe is more about melee assassins, than it is about stealthies. And with it, a lot of melee assassins already faced reworks. Because the issue is being forced to get into melee range, but become unable to survive.
5 Likes
Sure, that’s a rough spot for melee as well. But a counter to all your points
-Zeratul isnt useful till 16
-Butcher isn’t even a stealth assassin
-As you’ve stated Nova has range which more than makes up for her lack of surviveability.
That isnt the big issue here, the big issue is what it takes for most melee to get into range. You mentioned samurai, samurai is just valeera without a stun or silence and his stealth isnt a good get away option till 13 or 16 when it gives him the blink. I’m not sure why you mentioned them when they all have more flaws than benefits. My character as well. There is no other build besides Q build for valeera and at 7 I have to take mutilate which lowers my only “get away” by half for more damage. On top of that Valeera isnt a typical assassin. If the enemy team doesnt have squishies she’s doomed cause she doesnt last in sustained fights.
Wtf? 
1 Like
Has one of the strongest ulti’s in the game, and used to have a level 7 talent that made him extremely OP. And even his alternative ulti gives him a lot of use.
He is not that ‘useless’ before 16.
But he is a dive melee assassin. The hero type that has proven to have a lot issues over time.
Samuro has been nerfed that much, because a certain grandmaster was able to use his powers that much, it was oppresive. It shows the hero has very strong points, but samuro is a difficult hero with it.
And there you describe the issues why its valeera, and not the melee assassins and stealth. Valeera cant realy adapt to the flow of the game at all, and generaly comes down to just a few relatively predictable initiators. This gives her a significant disadvantage when the attack opportunity is over and needs to run.
Either they have a mobility ability, or they can walk in with some protection. Valeera lacks the mobility, but Valeera has stealth on that. But stealth is weak during calm moments. But the issue is not that stealth can be broken, its that she has it as only mechanic, and requires it for initiating.
The moment she gets knocked out of it, she has to wait until vanish is off CD. Thats where she also has a key problem.
But as i said earlier, its just valeera. Its not stealth, and not melee being the issue, its purely valeera.
It was buffed.
Zera, Sam and Valeera are the melee Stealth Heroes.
All are fine winrate-wise. Valeera needs talent rework, but how Stealth works (on her) is perfectly fine.
As Valeera, it’s part of her skill-requirement to know when and how to use her Stealth to not get revealed.
8 Likes
I like that you described his Q this way I keep thinking about that but never mentioned it.
Valeera needs a rework definitely but I think changing the rulings of stealth only for her might not make sense. I don’t know much about Valeera though but, perhaps strengthening her in different ways is what should be done.
I know when and how to use her stealth just fine. The alternate issue isnt JUST that particular melee’s have issues which they do and should be addressed. LOTS of characters have issues. Murky/aba being almost unkillable, Medivh not able to be targeted by towers in bird form, countless others. But stealth was NEVER buffed, you’re either stupid or insane to think it was when people still see you coming from a mile away. Secondly you keep mentioning butcher but conveniently fail to mention his unstoppable when he charges which is something NONE of the aforementioned characters have so that makes your point null.
Is that what he was referring to? I thought it was his Armor of the Archlich.
On topic, it takes a lot of work to completely redesign or buff/nerf a mechanic, because you aren’t just changing it for one character, you’re changing it for everyone that has it. Across-the-board changes like this can have serious unforeseen consequences, so you have to take everyone into consideration. You list Valeera as your reason for wanting this change, but she won’t be the only one that’s affected by it. All the stealth heroes, as well as heroes that have access to talents that provide stealth, would be affected. It would be easier to just buff the character itself and not the Stealth mechanic, assuming that she truly needs help.
Yeah his Q does a frrt sound, the first time I heard it I thought. What’s that sound what keeps doing that, who’s farting?
I love KTZ
Also a KTZ hitting his Q on an invis Valeera is what I call a nice skillshot.
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In one sentence you said “One of the major flaws of valeera is to get her going she needs to start in stealth and if she gets knocked out she has to wait for vanish” Then you say the above issue. Which is it? Is it a valeera problem or a stealth one cause if theres LESS RISK of being knocked out of stealth that sounds like a STEALTH problem and not specifically a valeera one. You are both for and against your own talking point.
Can you show your stats with her and your rank?
Or I just read the patchnotes.
You know, Stealth was never designed to be invisible while moving (hence it was referred as an ‘eyetest’l.
I personally saw it all the time. Thus to me (and to many others, usually at higher ranks), Stealth never got nerfed. At high lvls ppl could never rely on the enemies not seeing them. And ppl should’ve never rely on others’ poor eyesight or certain graphic settings.
On the other hand, Stealth got True Invisibility when you stand still (buff).
(Plus in Valeera’s case, baseline teleport on all the openers and not just on Q after talented at lvl 13-16.)
That’s not me. But you showcased your awareness quite well…
Actually it was just a joke to describe how easy it is to knock stealthier out of their vantage point. But yeah armor of the arch lich reveals valeera too and it absolutely should NOT do that.
Why not?
I have valeera to lvl 15 from scratch. Secondly why does rank matter in a dead game that killed it’s own ranking system to the point of irrelevance? That’s just the typical “I’m losing the talking point so quick pivot to something else I can weaponize that doesnt matter.” Thirdly, yes my observation skills while at work talking to 2 different people with the same portrait. Lastpy I’ve played A LOT if I were to go into ranked which I dont like then I’d be about diamond/platinum.
If i say valeera has issue X and issue Y, both having the issue on her stealth part. It can still be just her. And it can be 2 issues.
Most heroes dont have issues if they get knocked out of stealth, only valeera has. Thats why its a valeera issue.
Thats not usefull information on skill. Im level 35 on nova and butcher, and im horrible with both of them (butcher is just fun in vs AI, and nova was a character i played a lot as noob).
PvP winrates can say a lot more. as it shows how good you are doing towards the average (of which hotslogs/heroesprofile isnt perfectly accurate, but a rough indication).
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Rank matters because certain Heroes have easier/harder job at certain ranks and tho winrate indicates success with a Hero, there’s difference based on where those ppl have that lvl of success.
The deadgame arguemnt is just the
…
And what are your stats?
You claim you know the Hero well, in which case you should certainly do better than average as her.
But if you don’t want to show your own stats, we can look at the given proofs regarding your proposition.
You claim that Stealth on Melees has an issue. But Zera and Sam are among the best Heroes, they usually either op or when balanced still a force that many fear at high lvl. So Stealth cannot be the real issue.
So the issue is either Valeera herself, or your skills as her.
Now Valeera nowadays isn’t doing really well but she needs a rework anyway, because her talenttree is flawed. It’s a mess because her kit enables flexible adaptation (via her Openers) yet her talents enforce a rigid playstyle that only using one of her Stealth Abilities (Openers) so you don’t miss out on your talents.
There is an issue here, but totally not what you’re fixating on. And your change suggestions would just make the game worse.
3 Likes
I don’t think you know how the hero works?
You get 1 second unrevealable with your trait.
That is when you can move, and if close by, land abilities before 3 seconds stealthier.
I’ve had plenty of games against Valera as heroes with shorter range spells, and the problem is even if I see her, the travel time and cast range of many spells is to slow to prevent her from engaging. One of those is Diablo. The travel time and range of your Q, even if you line up to hit her, she can engage before fire stomp has a chance to hit her.
Valeera needs some help in the talent department, not whatever this is you’re trying to do.
Also the fact you suggest that melee stealth heroes, including Samuro and Zeratul needs buffs via this is hilarious.
Dude, you should try playing these heroes for any serious amount of games while trying to get value.
Murky requires skill or bad enemies to be hard to kill.
Abathur in QM is frustration unless in a party/get lucky with Matchmaker. And if you want to get value with bad allies, it is risky.
Medivh literally cannot do anything in bird form beyond cast a portal or give vision.
Sounds like you should look to overall either improve your skills on valeera, or your general game knowledge.
4 Likes