Soaking to catch up is only worth it if you are 1 level or less from a talent tier

General Discussion
41

That’s one strategy you can employ, but it also has its own risks. That one person is extremely vulnerable to ganks which risks staggered deaths and almost an inevitable push. If you’re gonna try to get back in the game in a real noticeable way, you have to get kills, and that’s just easier if you’re going to use every resource that you have, because once you get the kill because of comeback mechanics, it just becomes so much easier to split off and soak anyways. Regardless, that definitely isn’t what the OP is referring to.

A fair amount, but that fight is hardly game breaking. They end pretty decisively or people split off to soak eventually. It’s exceedingly rare for the enemy to outnumber you, stay there, make no headway, and lose soak on multiple waves. If that was truly the case, if that person didn’t leave, you probably would have wiped them anyways, and gotten that experience from kills and you could have split off and soaked anyways lol. Big deficits are created not just by lack of soak but from constant deaths, that is what needs to be reigned in.

42

I don’t want to offend anyone, but many players don’t know that if thou lag behind the level after the 10th, need try to gank heroes - loners or an enemy team when it is in the minority, because for killing heroes thou are get more experience than for creeps - because buff on the experience. At the same time, the leading team has a fine/forfeit for the same thing and of them better to push. If only to soak, thou most likely shall not live to the 20th level - good players shall simply skip yer weakest line to the core without giving to thou time to get level 20. However, good players also shall not allow to thou to catch them in the minority.

43

True, you won’t close the entire gap. That’s not the plan of soaking though. The main goal behind soaking is to reduce the gap, so you can (eventually) take a big fight without a major disadvantage. Soaking won’t get you to even levels, but you should at least be able to get to even talents. A 16 v 19 fight is very doable, 13 v 16 with a talent down is not.

Your overall point is valid though. Soaking is very important, but it’s not always the right option. There are (rare) times when you have to fight anyway, mostly because you’re so far behind there is no time to recover. ‘need to soak’ is a bit like ‘focus the healer’ in that regard; The general concept makes sense, but you can’t mindlessly follow it all the time.

3 Likes
44

All depends on the team compositions though. But considering you are 3 levels behind, its very likely that the team was doing bad all game anyway. The best way to catch up is to become a team while playing. That way you generaly automaticly catch up by simply becoming more reliable at defending.

And note that since the fort changes, isolating an enemy causes the fort to quickly level the HP value of your target to be reduced to your level (losing 10 armor is often worth 2-3 levels of HP).

Still, at that point its not about kills though, its about surviving. Therefor teamfights are discouraged (but still inevitable). It doesnt matter if a team is 3 levels ahead, 1 combo of your team can still insta delete an enemy. But that only happens with teamwork.

But on 1 thing i do agree,
Being a talent behind should not be a reason to start a fight, since even though you take the initiative. The enemy has the advantage. Even more when they have level 10/20 and you dont. Unless its in about your core, accepting some damage in order to catch up can be a viable tactic. Deaths only set you back further.

But regardless of the level gap, you eventualy will face a fight, better to be prepared for a fight with 3 levels behind, than to not be prepared and lose a player before your team is even together. Soaking can hinder at this part.

Soaking isnt always a good idea to do, the enemy can use that to their advantage aswel and keep ahead. You might catch up with 1 level, if they take down a fort, that fort grants enough XP for them to equalize that for a long time.

Getting a kill is always more beneficial at that gap though, it not only gives you direct XP, after the fight, they also lose a player for soaking. Even trading 2:2 in such fight and losing soaking capabilities is more beneficial since the 2 kills grant a lot more XP than you would with soaking.

Its just that if you fight, you should start that fight with an advantage. Catching a soaking enemy that is out of position is worth getting a group together for, even if you lose some soak. Going 5v5 is generaly not.
Losing 1 lane of soaking, and taking out that hero using 3 heroes yourself, while the enemey was soaking all lanes is worth it. They instantly lose soak on that lane aswel.

45

The enemy is a talent up, being 20 when you’re not. They’re not going to be running away from you. If you come looking for a fight 17 vs 20, why the hell would they not take it? That’S the whole point of getting talent advantage. You want your enemy to come at you a talent down.

No one who wants to win will avoid a fight where they have the advantage.

1 Like
46

Right, but your whole ambush strategy kinda relies on using your ambush to negate that level advantage. Why would the enemy agree to walk into that? They want a fight where they can use their advantage to decisively win the fight, not try to cancel out the major disadvantage of walking into an ambush.

They don’t have to run away from you, but they don’t have to walk into your ambush either. Why would they, when they can just make you come to them by getting free uncontested value anywhere else on the map?

Every argument you can bring up for why ambushing the overleveled enemy would be good is also an argument for why that enemy should want to avoid your ambush. And every argument why the enemy should want to walk into it is an argument for why you shouldn’t go for it.

47

Because…yeah it pretty much does.
That and not being aware of where the enemy rotates, or where allies are during team fights.
And if you lack awareness like that you aren’t going to get kills anyway.
Having the other 2 there isn’t going to help.

My lord you guys are foolish.
You don’t just “passively” soak.
That’s never a part of the game.

1 Like
48

Maybe I should clarify a bit for my OP. The problem I was having in this game was that those 2 soakers were prioritizing soaking even over objectives. It was the infernal shrines map. The obj was up and it was clear that the enemy team had 3 doing the obj and 2 in another lane. We had an opportunity to get a 5v3 fight on the obj even while down 3 levels, but the 2 soakers refused to participate and just kept pinging the level difference.

Yes, it’s obvious that a winning team that plays well will be difficult to catch out, but these people are not professionals and the truth is that most people are potatoes in this game and make mistakes. Not capitalizing on those mistakes is how you guarantee your loss.

49

Well then just wait in your base for them to end.

50

Or just soak for even talents and then pick a good fight?

51

Just takes too long when you’re already at 13 which is why I thought MSI’s idea to level 5 times before the next engagement to be ludicrous. You’re too far gone already at that point and to think that your enemy won’t capitalize on objectives or engage on you is pure fantasy.

You can pick good fights and still win with a talent gap (the big exception being level 10, though I’ve won those too, good picks are still good picks). Numbers advantage very often trumps levels. The risk/reward is just too good to pass up. If you die, oh well, you were already losing.

52

SOAKING TO CATCH UP IS ONLY WORTH IT IF YOU ARE 1 LEVEL OR LESS FROM A TALENT TIER

53

NO! Even bigger gaps are manageable if you just have some patience to wait until you catch up. You might have to give up an objective in the meantime, but that’s better than dying pointlessly for a fight you cant realistically win.

True. But if you’re NOT at an objective that will decide the game and you’re 2-3 levels and a talent down (levels alone isn’t that bad, talent is the important factor) you’re still better off soaking and defending until you do catch up in talents. The loss of an objective or building sucks, but that’s a smaller price to pay than picking an unnecessary outtalented fight that will probably put you even further behind.

Magically? No. But if you play efficiently you should be able to actively outsoak the overleveled enemy to the point that you can break even on talents (level doesn’t matter that much, talents is the crucial part). A defending team typically has more safe opportunities to soak. Also the increasing xp per level means that the (numbers made up examples) 10k xp gap that put you 3 levels behind at 10 only puts you 1 or 2 levels behind when at 15.

54

You. cannot. wait. past. a. game. ending. objective.

That is precisely what we’re discussing. Situations where trying to soak your way back into the game is pointless.

55

True, but that’s an entirely separate issue that has nothing to do with how many levels you’re behind.

Not exactly, the discussion is also about when it is or isn’t pointless. In situations where it’s ‘only’ a 3-lvl deficit you should soak (until even talents) for example, even though too many players will pick pointless fights because they think fights are the only way to come back (without realizing they need to set up a less unfavorable fight first).

There’s 2 different aspects here;

A- Being 2-3 levels behind
and
B- Right before a game-ending objective.

The two are not the same thing. In situation B (imminent loss) you should indeed fight, but in situation A (only X levels down) you should soak, even if you have to give up an objective or keep in the meantime. There’s plenty of situations where you can be 2-3 levels behind yet still survive losing another objective, and should therefore soak.

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