Yes this is the problem that has many faces - in essence, that’s people thinking one-dimentionally.
They see a problem (level disadvantage) and they know a solution (soaking), but they don’t think beyond that.
They don’t think, for example, that the enemy is also soaking XP, so if the enemy plays passively they will still keep their advantage and win.
They also don’t think that by giving the enemy free objectives and camps - the gap between your teams grows more than you’re able to soak in that time.
The only correct play if you’re that far behind - is either catching a lone struggler on the map and then win at a numerical advantage, or if that’s not possible - to do a risky boss play or something.
Playing passively when behind is doing your enemy a favor, because you can’t just magically soak more XP than they do.
p.s. GEEZ so many people in this thread are clueless and defend soaking! It’s insane.
Wake up, guys!
Yes.
But you have to think in chances to stabilize rather than chances to die.
If you soak - you are at an 20-80 disadvantage, i.e. you have 20% chance to secure victory that way and win - and that only if the enemy makes a big mistake.
But if you try and pick them off alone - your chances are 40/60. You are STILL at a disadvantage. You STILL have more chances to “feed” than you have chances to secure a kill.
But you are WAY better off than passively soaking.
By the time you soak enough to clear the level disadvantage (which you’re only able to do thanks to diminishing returns on enemy leveling) - you have probably lost the entire map. You’re probably at a level 20+ and you have no keeps and no forts. If, that is, you haven’t simply lost by that point by giving up free objectives.
Soaking under such a disadvantage is POINTLESS.
You know when you soak? It’s when:
The enemy has just hit a talent tier level.
There is no critical objective on the map
You have less than 1 level to soak.
In that situation - yes, you should avoid the fight and soak to have equal talent tier.
But if that’s not the case, and you can not make up the difference before the next objective - then soaking is literally pointless. You should concentrate on shutting down the enemy, and that means either making an ambush or a power play (camp, boss, or 4-lane taking a fort)
By being passive and soaking - your only hope in the world is the enemy making a mistake and your team not doing the same.
thats not true at all, if you have a level 13/16 difference, you can easily get a 18/19 with a good soaking(you can win a tf in that situation), even if the enemy soaks as well as you do since the higher the level you are the harderst is to level up.
BlockquoteBy the time people do camps, you’re no longer level 1. Your assumption is also that you only kill one person at the start. You also make an assumption that somehow one person can soak two lanes if there is a 4v5, which can only realistically happen if it’s not the middle lane on small maps which is usually what people fight mid over.
the relation between camps and mob waves experience is very similar in all levels, and if you think someone cant soak two lanes at the same time is because you clearly didnt play with/against a decent vikings, they are the best example of what im talking about.
you can soak two lanes at big maps as well, specially at Blackheart’s Bay (top and mid lanes) since the lanes are close and you dont have to travel for much time, people usually think they should soak bot but top and mid are the most important part.
Nope, that’s just a lie. Even if you were able to do that, it would take quite a bit of a while, and an objective would have passed by then which would only further your demise.
LoL, so I’m assuming that I’m always fighting against Vikings now? And also, like I said, you can’t rotate from bottom to top to soak two lanes especially if you’re saying people are fighting mid. Just shows how ridiculous and reaching you are in your examples, but I could kind of tell from the way you were “mathing” it out in a very simplistic way while ignoring a bunch of other variables.
And in the meantime lose lots of camps, bosses, objectives and structures.
You are starting at just a level disadvantage and ending up in a state where your core is stripped, every objective is a loss condition, and your lanes are always pushing.
Of course we defend soaking because if the assassins were playing their role well soaking and doing camps from the get go this situation would not happen.
You are not going to pick stragglers if you do not create a situation where they need to be separated from them group.
We are not talking to what happened before and who’s at fault. We are talking explicitly about what you should do WHEN you are already 3 levels behind.
And passive soaking without fighting - is not that.
Of course soaking in general is an important part of the game. But passivity is not a solution for when you’re behind.
at that difference of levels your only option is to soak, get similar levels and counter with a good tf at the end game for winning, it doesnt matter how hard you want to deny it, this is how things works in this game.
How do you know it wasn’t because the others didn’t join in helping the assassins because they were too concentrated on soaking, which then led to a level deficit, which then made them double down on soaking because they’re behind and then never engaging. This stuff happens.
Besides, that’s not even what the thread is talking about.
the players that are engaging in a tf should look at the map and see that they are doing a 4vs5 in advance, all players should keep an eye where are all the foes and allies before doing something, unless you do the call for doing it, its your fault.
LoL, which you literally can not get in an efficient manner if both sides are safely soaking.
There’s that ideal hypothetical again. And no, I do not blame the side that is outnumbered because someone decided to pick the easiest job of killing minions while abandoning the team. Not impressed. At level 1, it’s fine, at higher levels as there are higher level deficits like the OP is talking about, nope.
If both teams soaks perfectly, you will still eventually get similar levels since the higher is the level the hardest is to level up, and ideally what you should do is wait until both teams are at level 18/19, before they get the last tier of talent for the tf.
If you dont trust me you can do the research of how xp works according to each level and how much xp you need to level up at each level, do the math and look by yourself, is up to you.
The thing is, it is fairly rare both sides can truly safely soak in the later game, as typically one side will have their lanes pushed out, and will need to take greater risks to soak. This is one weird side effect of the original laning changes, where getting an XP lead can often make it more difficult to soak.
So while I am definitely not in the “soak instead of taking advantage of an opportunity” camp, it is somewhat unrealistic to expect both sides to have an equal playing field in the mid to late game when it comes to soaking safely.
You don’t need to tell me how XP works. You’re just ignorant if you think you can reach a 3 level parity quickly just because of the XP requirement differences. It’s my knowledge of how XP works, why I recommend not doing passive soaking when in that level of deficit because the rewards of the comeback mechanic where you get so much more experience from kills allow you to equalize the playing field much faster.
That’s true, especially if catapults have started spawning, but that’s usually balanced over time by faster passive XP gains from taking out forts over time and the fact that you’re many levels ahead. Even in the best of cases for the under level, you’re not making up a 3 level deficit if you’re just passively soaking without the enemy team being comatose.
You are insane. You’re at level 13, and you want to gain 5 levels before you engage. That is a life time without ever engaging. Why do you need the numbers, we both can freaking look them up. All it will say is that the numbers required graduates over time, but no matter how hard you try to fudge the math you’re not going to be able to account for 5 levels worth of XP from soaking alone in a reasonable amount of time.
Oh, I agree that soaking on its own won’t make up that large a deficit, and should be only a piece in the larger strategy puzzle, but wanted to clarify that soaking will always be asymmetrical at a certain point in the game. Because of this, safe soaking isn’t always a bad idea for getting that “free” XP that can’t be easily countered by the enemy team.
There is also the issue that far too many people consider any sort of activity in a lane to be “soaking”. For me, “soaking” is when my only purpose is to generate XP, preferably that can’t be matched by the enemy team. A lot of times my goal in lane isn’t just to soak XP, but to clear something that could threaten a keep, push back a lane to grant us more vision, prep a lane for the next objective/camp/boss, bait an enemy into a bad rotation so we can ambush them, or give the enemy false information as to what my team is doing at the moment (the tank is bot lane, no way we are possibly doing the boss right now, nope, not us!).
It frustrates me to no end when someone pings me and says something along the lines of “Why are you just soaking?” Not all activity in lane is soaking, dammit!
Basically you’re just hoping that despite being 3 levels behind, and playing against opponents that have thus far been so much better than you that they could GAIN that 3 level lead to begin with, you think you can get kills with just 3 people without dying and just losing more than the XP gain you’d get from the kills.
I think you’re the reason you’re 3 levels behind…
Soak and keep up with your opponent.
When there is something worth fighting over, engage with superior positioning ESPECIALLY if you are behind in level.
You almost never want to fight a highly risky battle hoping for the big payoff when you could instead take a lot of small guaranteed advantages.
And for goodness sakes, please realize that pushing lanes not only protects your towers, but also provides a better map state so you CAN more easily engage from a superior position or take an advantage elsewhere… like Hoku stated.
I’ve never seen a 5 level difference. Ever.
And I’ve never seen a 4 level lead turn into a loss.
3s can turn, but it really depends on the winning team throwing the game away, usually by getting wiped twice in a row in bad engagements and I’d rather just try to avoid falling that far behind in the first place.
You don’t have to account for 3 levels of XP by just soaking, you just have to STOP GIVING THEM A BIGGER LEAD long enough to engage on your terms.
That’s the point, they can’t without the help of the other 2, especially when you’re down 3 levels. And I don’t know why people like you are so daft that you can’t understand that a 3 level deficit does not come from lack of soaking alone. To keep pointing it out is just like stupidity at this point.
I’m not saying a 5 level difference at the start. The example given was starting at 13, and he wanted to wait until it was 18/19. It’s just the enemy levels the same time you do, albeit a little slower, so even by the time you gained some levels, so will have your opponent. There’s no way you can justify not engaging and just passively soaking for that long and expect the enemy to just sit on their butts and let you do it.
Actually you do, because by being too passive, you’re not actually getting much of an advantage because you’re already behind. As Aax points out, the odds aren’t in your favor, but that’s already the case because you’re behind, however, the risk/reward ratio is so more heavily skewed towards action that not doing anything and gaining almost nothing. You don’t become needlessly aggressive, but you still have to be intelligent about your engagements and exploit mistakes, but you’re definitely not going to get ahead just by soaking.
Is that situation shouldn’t the person with the best clear try to double soak while the 4 others stay together until the talent deficit (and not the level deficit) disapears?
This is likely going to be one of the assassins.
Also to the people saying “the situation before hand is not relevant”, it is.
Had lots of games where people ignore soak and camps while the other side did not and then they try to do their job when it is too late to salvage it.
Sure there are unlucky games , but how many are lost because no soak pvp mid at the start when they do not even have the comp advantage ?